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#1
I mainly stick to dorian right now, but that's only cause I've been trying to improvise a lot around Fade To Black for some depressing/melodic feel into my playing.

But less melodic and more depressing feel I'm looking for. Because any scale can be melodic like the Harmonic minor or whatever. Any ideas guys? Thanks in advance
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isnt there a law against not shaving? thats somewere in our constitution. i think it goes something like a girl maybe be a freak in the sheets but no be wild down stairs is treason and for that she will be beheaded.-good old Benjamin F.

#2
The scale is a very small part of the overall sound. There is no such thing as a "sad sounding" scale. Fade to black is in various minor keys. If you want to improvise over it, use the minor scale.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#3
The minor scale combined with the Lydian mode is very effective at making me feel depressed! I don't find scales to be depressing to be honest unless they are accompanied with a basic chord, say an E minor. Then if an A minor scale is played over the top, or an E minor scale. And then it is switched to the Dorian mode, or Lydian. That can convey a lot of emotion.
#4
Quote by AngryGoldfish
The minor scale combined with the Lydian mode is very effective at making me feel depressed! I don't find scales to be depressing to be honest unless they are accompanied with a basic chord, say an E minor. Then if an A minor scale is played over the top, or an E minor scale. And then it is switched to the Dorian mode, or Lydian. That can convey a lot of emotion.


You wouldn't play lydian over an E minor chord.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#5
Who says you can't? Theres no rules, its just whatever sounds good to yourself. I wouldn't play the Lydian for a long period of time, that would just sound kinda daft, but if its thrown in there secretly, it can throw the listener off. Which is what I like doing.
#6
Quote by AngryGoldfish
Who says you can't? Theres no rules, its just whatever sounds good to yourself. I wouldn't play the Lydian for a long period of time, that would just sound kinda daft, but if its thrown in there secretly, it can throw the listener off. Which is what I like doing.


No, you can't. Words have definitions for a reason. You can play whatever you want over an Em minor drone, but it won't be lydian. Lydian refers to a specific concept.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#9
Quote by MV4824
BIG +1 - Music needs variety, not just structural patterns.


Indeed. I have seen the standard Ionian mode in Black metal before. Phrasing makes a huge difference.
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#10
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, you can't. Words have definitions for a reason. You can play whatever you want over an Em minor drone, but it won't be lydian. Lydian refers to a specific concept.
You'll hate me for this......

But what about E Lydian?


Quote by AngryGoldfish
Theres no rules, its just whatever sounds good to yourself.
The are no rules for what you can and can't play, but there are rules for naming things. I can play a C major chord in the key of C minor, defying standard theory, but I can't call that chord a G major chord just because I want to.
#11
Quote by Avedas
Scales mean very very very little. Phrasing is all that matters.



+1million
song stuck in my head today


#12
Quote by Avedas
Scales mean very very very little. Phrasing is all that matters.
Phrasing is a big deal, but the scale does matter. You'll sound completely different if you play C Dorian over a static Cm chord than if you play C Phrygian.
#13
You'll hate me for this......

But what about E Lydian?


I'd be hesitant to actually call it E lydian.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#14
Quote by Archeo Avis
I'd be hesitant to actually call it E lydian.
What would you call it? Just chromaticism?

I would describe it as "The soloist added some unusual chromatic tones by playing the E Lydian scale over the Em chord, rather the a minor scale.
#15
Quote by AngryGoldfish
Who says you can't? Theres no rules, its just whatever sounds good to yourself. I wouldn't play the Lydian for a long period of time, that would just sound kinda daft, but if its thrown in there secretly, it can throw the listener off. Which is what I like doing.


you can play anything you want, and call it what you want. but if you play E lydian over E minor..... its not going to sound like E lydian.

You can call it E lydian, but anyone that knows anything about music theory will disagree with you. Your better off just saying its "these notes"... and they work good here. At least then no one can argue with you.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 13, 2008,
#17
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I still don't get why it's wrong to call it E Lydian. You can play the E minor pentatonic over an E7 chord, why not a major scale over a minor chord?


But none of the notes in the scale you're using are not functioning as they would if you were actually using lydian. You've clearly established a minor tonality with your backing harmony; playing a major third in the melody does not magically put the piece in a major key, it's just some chromatic tone thrown in there. The use of "phrygian" over a dominant chord is a good example. It can't be called "phrygian" because there's nothing resembling a minor tonality. Instead, you're playing the same notes as phrygian (in the same sense that D dorian contains the same notes as C ionian), but all of the notes are functioning differently. In this case, phrygians b3 would better be looked at from the perspective of an altered dominant's #2. In that sense, it would better be looked at as an altered scale than as phrygian.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#19
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I still don't get why it's wrong to call it E Lydian. You can play the E minor pentatonic over an E7 chord, why not a major scale over a minor chord?



the reason you can do that is because the notes all function in the E7 harmony.

the E minor pentatonic gives you a #9 sound over an E7 chord.
shred is gaudy music
#20
You can do it over an E chord in a bluesy context, though I suppose the bluesy context implies an E7 chord.

I still say it's most pragmatic to call it E Lydian.


Or try this:
The major third of the Lydian scale implies an E major chord while the minor seventh of the implied Em scale (by the Em chord) makes it E7. So, the G note in the Em chord is actually Fx, the #9.
#21
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You can do it over an E chord in a bluesy context, though I suppose the bluesy context implies an E7 chord.

I still say it's most pragmatic to call it E Lydian.


Or try this:
The major third of the Lydian scale implies an E major chord while the minor seventh of the implied Em scale (by the Em chord) makes it E7. So, the G note in the Em chord is actually Fx, the #9.



Im not sure what your trying to say.

If your playing E lydian over an E minor chord.... you have to justify the notes as they relate to the chord.

E = R
F# = 2
G# = M3 ( there is no way to justify this over a minor chord)
A# = b5
B = 5
C# = 6
D# = 7 ( there is no way to justify this over a minor chord )
shred is gaudy music
#22
Quote by GuitarMunky
Im not sure what your trying to say. My post was sarcastic and should not be taken seriously.

If your playing E lydian over an E minor chord.... you have to justify the notes as they relate to the chord. It creates the desired sound over the given chord

E = R
F# = 2
G# = M3 ( there is no way to justify this over a minor chord) Dissonance, tension, chromaticism
A# = b5
B = 5
C# = 6
D# = 7 ( there is no way to justify this over a minor chord ) Aside from harmonic and melodic minor, of course.


The bold is me.
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The bold is me.



that justification doesnt work. its not chromaticism. And if it was.... why even say your using a mode.

bottom line is E lydian over E minor is NOT E lydian.
shred is gaudy music
#24
Quote by GuitarMunky
that justification doesnt work. its not chromaticism.
Justifying something by calling it a chromatic tone ALWAYS works.

Quote by GuitarMunky
And if it was.... why even say your using a mode.
There is a big difference between saying that I used the E Lydian scale to create a lick or melody and saying that something is a modal progression using E Lydian. If you don't understand this concept or don't know anything about it, it explains your thinking in our other argument and I will be happy to explain the difference.

Quote by GuitarMunky
bottom line is E lydian over E minor is NOT E lydian.
It's not modal use of the E Lydian mode over a modal E Lydian progression, but you're certainly using the E Lydian scale, just not in a modal way.
#25
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Justifying something by calling it a chromatic tone ALWAYS works.

There is a big difference between saying that I used the E Lydian scale to create a lick or melody and saying that something is a modal progression using E Lydian. If you don't understand this concept or don't know anything about it, it explains your thinking in our other argument and I will be happy to explain the difference.

It's not modal use of the E Lydian mode over a modal E Lydian progression, but you're certainly using the E Lydian scale, just not in a modal way.



oh please explain, I dont understand any of that

if you like the way that sounds.... by all means use it. I dont necessarily want to hear it though.
shred is gaudy music
#26
Quote by GuitarMunky
oh please explain, I dont understand any of that
Your posts make it appear that you do not understand this concept. Normally I would explain such an idea, but you're not worth an hour long post.
#27
Quote by GuitarMunky
oh please explain, I dont understand any of that

She offered to help you if you needed it, she didn't say "You're a dumbass, here's why I'm better". That kind of attitude's not needed here, give us a break.
#28
Quote by :-D
She offered to help you if you needed it, she didn't say "You're a dumbass, here's why I'm better". That kind of attitude's not needed here, give us a break.


ok... but man I really needed her help
shred is gaudy music
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
ok... but man I really needed her help

And still you persist with this jackassery. Just let it go, she offered to help and a simple "no" would have sufficed.
#31
Quote by :-D
And still you persist with this jackassery. Just let it go, she offered to help and a simple "no" would have sufficed.


the jackassery was already going on, I just pointed it out.


so lets get back to a constructive discussion

do you guys thing that playing E lydian over E minor will give you a Lydian sound ?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 13, 2008,
#32
Quote by GuitarMunky
tdo you guys thing that playing E lydian over E minor will give you a Lydian sound ?

You obviously wouldn't be using the Lydian mode, but you can certainly take any note you wish from the E Lydian scale. It's not hard to understand, and I think that was all BGC was trying to say.
#33
Quote by :-D
You obviously wouldn't be using the Lydian mode, but you can certainly take any note you wish from the E Lydian scale. It's not hard to understand, and I think that was all BGC was trying to say.


exactly, It wouldnt be Lydian mode.

why would you want to use a note from the lydian mode over E minor ?

give me an example of where that would work and why
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 13, 2008,
#34
Quote by GuitarMunky
why would you do that ?
Perhaps someone wants to have a unique and unusual sound. Originality, imagine that...

All these n00bs come in here and insist that learning theory will damage their creativity and I've always refuted that argument, but after hearing you, I'm no longer sure.
#35
Quote by GuitarMunky
why would you do that ?

Well, let's say you're playing over an E minor chord, if you're playing G to B you might play G to A# B so that A# acts as a leading tone. That note's borrowed from the E Lydian scale, but you're not in E Lydian.
#36
Quote by :-D
Well, let's say you're playing over an E minor chord, if you're playing G to B you might play G to A# B so that A# acts as a leading tone. That note's borrowed from the E Lydian scale, but you're not in E Lydian.


thats not borrowing from E lydian.... its using a chromatic leading tone.
shred is gaudy music
#37
Quote by GuitarMunky
thats not borrowing from E lydian.... its using a chromatic leading tone.

If your tonal center is still E, the A# is borrowed from E Lydian.
#38
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Perhaps someone wants to have a unique and unusual sound. Originality, imagine that...

All these n00bs come in here and insist that learning theory will damage their creativity and I've always refuted that argument, but after hearing you, I'm no longer sure.



stop with the childish insults and lets have a productive talk.
give me a real reason to use it. saying "originality".... is a copout... and BS.
shred is gaudy music
#39
Quote by :-D
Well, let's say you're playing over an E minor chord, if you're playing G to B you might play G to A# B so that A# acts as a leading tone. That note's borrowed from the E Lydian scale, but you're not in E Lydian.
I know what you mean, but A#/Bb (don't whip out your equation!) is the blue note. I meant something completely contained in the E Lydian scale, completely uninvolved with the E minor scale.

Quote by GuitarMunky
give me a real reason to use it. saying "originality".... is a copout... and BS.
Perhaps it sounds good in a certain scenario.
#40
Quote by :-D
If your tonal center is still E, the A# is borrowed from E Lydian.


you can justify it that way.... for arguments sake. but the truth is its functioning as a chromatic leading tone.
shred is gaudy music
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