#1
Ok, so I know that books/movies/shows etc that have apocalyptic settings like I Am Legend, Resident Evil, etc are all examples of a Dystopian story, but what do you call it when the good guys/protagonists lose? Im looking for more books/movies along these lines.


Examples are: The Departed, The Mist, 28 Days/Weeks/Years/Seconds Later, The Shining, Cloverfield, etc.
#4
real life
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#5
reality


EDIT:damn, beaten too it

EDIT 2:sorry insideac, it's an opinion
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Last edited by orion284 at Apr 15, 2008,
#6
Quote by Carswell98
real life



Yes because all those movies are definately the epitome of realism. Serious posts only, please. I hope I dont regret posting an intelligent question in the Pit.
Im reporting the idiots.
#9
Quote by oh noes!!
tragedy, i believe

romeo and juliet for example.



Yes, like Romeo and Juliet! Is Tragedy what its really called? Do you know of any other, maybe more modern tragedy stories like that?
#10
Quote by insideac
Yes because all those movies are definately the epitome of realism. Serious posts only, please. I hope I dont regret posting an intelligent question in the Pit.


No, its really not.


fine you want a serious post?

Tragedy.


you know, like

Romeo and Juliet

Hamlet

most of shakespeare's work


it was a stupid question, it got a stupid answer
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― Terry Pratchett

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#11
I think Tragedy has to start and end bad no?
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#12
Quote by Carswell98
fine you want a serious post?

Tragedy.


you know, like

Romeo and Juliet

Hamlet

most of shakespeare's work


it was a stupid question, it got a stupid answer



How was it a stupid question? Im comparing it to the rest of the threads in the pit and I honestly cant see your logic.
#13
Quote by insideac
How was it a stupid question? Im comparing it to the rest of the threads in the pit and I honestly cant see your logic.


fine

it wasn't stupid, you could have just used a little common sense though don't you think?

I didn't mean my first post to offend, but come on, this is the internet, you can't possibly expect serious answers all the time right?
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“If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.”
― Terry Pratchett

qft...



Jeremy Clarkson is a knob.
#14
the winner of the day is TRADGEDY

there are very few modern ones

because we all love bubble gum and colors

im being quite serious

if you want some real badass tradgedy the only modern thing u will find is emo poems

most tradgedies can be mixed up with other genres

SERIOUS ANSWER ENOUGH??
#15
I dont think Tragedy is what I want. I just looked at some stuff on it and its not really the same thing Im thinking of. The Greek Tragedy thing isnt entirely pessimistic, where what I have in mind, the stories start bad and end worse.
#16
Quote by shut_up_n00b
I think Tragedy has to start and end bad no?
Tragedy during the time of Shakspeare was broadly defined as anything with a bad ending, IIRC.

TS, I'm inclined to agree with Carswell as to how you handled the other responses. I answered your question seriously in the first reply, yet you chose to ignore it and focus on people being goofy.

Not taking a potshot or trying to start shit. Just sayin.
#17
then u want emo poems because no writers write depressing all the way through

because people wouldnt bite or they would commit suicide in the process of reading it

before guitar i read a ****load of books and the only thing i can think of is tragedy.

btw i dont know how to spell anymore i used to be the god of all english but now i can only hope i get my hsc
#19
Quote by Flying Couch
Tragedy during the time of Shakspeare was broadly defined as anything with a bad ending, IIRC.

TS, I'm inclined to agree with Carswell as to how you handled the other responses. I answered your question seriously in the first reply, yet you chose to ignore it and focus on people being goofy.

Not taking a potshot or trying to start shit. Just sayin.



No, I saw your reply and it was serious so I didnt have anything to say about it, thats where I started looking it up and stuff, trying to find out exactly what it was. Thanks though
#20
Quote by insideac
I dont think Tragedy is what I want. I just looked at some stuff on it and its not really the same thing Im thinking of. The Greek Tragedy thing isnt entirely pessimistic, where what I have in mind, the stories start bad and end worse.



no the only thing that has changed is the way in which the "hero" meets an end


in a shakespeare play, it tended to be the protagonists faults that caused then to die, in a modern tragedy it tends to be the world around the hero which is to blame(even if that is zombies)

do you see what I mean?

its not totally different, just a shift in what is to blame really.
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― Terry Pratchett

qft...



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#21
Quote by insideac
I dont think Tragedy is what I want. I just looked at some stuff on it and its not really the same thing Im thinking of. The Greek Tragedy thing isnt entirely pessimistic, where what I have in mind, the stories start bad and end worse.
Yes, it is what you want.

A modern example? How about The Crucible?
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EDIT: Technically, Xaioxi below me is correct. But I believe that as time has passed, the definition as become more and more loose.

For someone who hates theatre, I know way too much about it. Even as pitiful as my knowledge is.
Last edited by Flying Couch at Apr 15, 2008,
#22
Not all stories with the good guy losing are tragedies.

Tragedies have a specific condition: There must be a profound flaw from within that turns the hero's fortunes from good to bad.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#23
Quote by Carswell98
no the only thing that has changed is the way in which the "hero" meets an end


in a shakespeare play, it tended to be the protagonists faults that caused then to die, in a modern tragedy it tends to be the world around the hero which is to blame(even if that is zombies)

do you see what I mean?

its not totally different, just a shift in what is to blame really.

You're talking about the idea of tragic virtue, which is the key distinction between the classical idea of hamartia and modern tragedy. However, your explanation is incomplete. Tragic virtues state that the hero has a quality that would be considered admirable under usual circumstances but due to external influences, the admirable quality becomes a flawed one. It's more complex than just having the world blame the hero.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#24
Quote by Xiaoxi
You're talking about the idea of tragic virtue, which is the key distinction between the classical idea of hamartia and modern tragedy. However, your explanation is incomplete. Tragic virtues state that the hero has a quality that would be considered admirable under usual circumstances but due to external influences, the admirable quality becomes a flawed one. It's more complex than just having the world blame the hero.



What about if the character is a gritty anti-hero, and the story is tragic? In The Mist the protagonist is a father who has to stay alive with his son while monsters invade the city or something, and at the end they make a run for it and he tries to escape but runs out of gasoline, so rather than having to be killed by them, he shoots his son and everyone in the car, and when he turns the gun on himself he realizes he is out of ammo, so he has to live with the fact that he shot his son. He gets outta the car to get killed by a monster and just then the military arrives and saves him. So if he waited 10 more minutes everyone would have been safe. Its this kind of twisted Irony that i am looking for.
#26
Quote by insideac
What about if the character is a gritty anti-hero, and the story is tragic? In The Mist the protagonist is a father who has to stay alive with his son while monsters invade the city or something, and at the end they make a run for it and he tries to escape but runs out of gasoline, so rather than having to be killed by them, he shoots his son and everyone in the car, and when he turns the gun on himself he realizes he is out of ammo, so he has to live with the fact that he shot his son. He gets outta the car to get killed by a monster and just then the military arrives and saves him. So if he waited 10 more minutes everyone would have been safe. Its this kind of twisted Irony that i am looking for.

I believe that would be considered a modern tragedy. The father's quality of focus is that he wants to protect his son from the monsters and due to the extreme circumstance, faces between putting his son out of his misery or let him be mauled by the aliens. The external forces twist the quality of a protective and responsible father into one who has to make a decision that will be rash any way he makes it.

It isn't the greatest example though. Usually, in a conventional tragedy, the hero's quality of focus, whether it's the flawed trait or the trait of tragic virtues, is explored and revisited often throughout the story to let the audience know exactly what trait will be exploited. For example, Hamlet is often shown as being too contemplative and indeterminate, and the blind dedication of Clym from Return of the Natives is exploited by fate gradually throughout the novel.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 15, 2008,
#27
Quote by Xiaoxi
You're talking about the idea of tragic virtue, which is the key distinction between the classical idea of hamartia and modern tragedy. However, your explanation is incomplete. Tragic virtues state that the hero has a quality that would be considered admirable under usual circumstances but due to external influences, the admirable quality becomes a flawed one. It's more complex than just having the world blame the hero.


what your saying is, I'm right but didn't take the time to explain myself thoroughly


... yes, I know


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“If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.”
― Terry Pratchett

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#28
Quote by Carswell98
what your saying is, I'm right but didn't take the time to explain myself thoroughly


... yes, I know



Well actually, there's a subtle but significant difference between what tragic virtue really is and what you were saying.

But sure, keep telling yourself that.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#29
Quote by Xiaoxi
Well actually, there's a subtle but significant difference between what tragic virtue really is and what you were saying.

But sure, keep telling yourself that.


I know what I meant

I'm just not as dedicated to making other people look stupid as you


Last.Fm

“If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.”
― Terry Pratchett

qft...



Jeremy Clarkson is a knob.