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#1
What other scales besides major can I use over a Cmaj7 chord in a jazz context. Can I use Lydian? I have a book on jazz but it doesnt give any other choices for scales.
Quote by allislost
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#3
U could use C's relative minor....so Am7 would work
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#4
Any scale with 1 3 5 and 7 in it can be used, if you choose to outline the chord. Which other tones you use will depend on context.
#5
Quote by Heaven Help Us
U could use C's relative minor....so Am7 would work
No you cannot and if you believe this, I'm afraid you do not understand how scales work. I suggest reviewing the basics and realizing that A B C D E F G over a C chord is just the C major scale, regardless of pattern or position on the fretboard.
#6
Quote by bangoodcharlote
No you cannot and if you believe this, I'm afraid you do not understand how scales work. I suggest reviewing the basics and realizing that A B C D E F G over a C chord is just the C major scale, regardless of pattern or position on the fretboard.


woah ur absolutely musta been asleep on that post...brains a little fried today long day
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#7
there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord.

you could play the C major scale

you could play the C Lydian scale

you could play the D minor pentatonic scale

you could also play the E minor pentatonic scale

and the A minor pentatonic scale

you could play a B minor pentatonic scale

go up a 5th, and play a Gmaj7th arpeggio. sounds great.

go up a flat 5th, and play a Gbm7b5 arpeggio, sounds very cool

of course you can play a C major arpeggio

also a D major arpeggio

and even a G major arpeggio.


want to sound even cooler?

go down a minor 3rd and play a A melodic minor scale over the Cmaj7

you can play a A minor major 7th arpeggio over Cmaj7 as well

you can go up a major 3rd and play an E maj arpeggio too

hell, you can even go up a whole step and play a D major scale over a Cmaj7

like i said, there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord
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#8
Quote by rich2k4
there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord.

you could play the C major scale

you could play the C Lydian scale

you could play the D minor pentatonic scale

you could also play the E minor pentatonic scale

and the A minor pentatonic scale

you could play a B minor pentatonic scale

go up a 5th, and play a Gmaj7th arpeggio. sounds great.

go up a flat 5th, and play a Gbm7b5 arpeggio, sounds very cool

of course you can play a C major arpeggio

also a D major arpeggio

and even a G major arpeggio.


want to sound even cooler?

go down a minor 3rd and play a A melodic minor scale over the Cmaj7

you can play a A minor major 7th arpeggio over Cmaj7 as well

you can go up a major 3rd and play an E maj arpeggio too

hell, you can even go up a whole step and play a D major scale over a Cmaj7

like i said, there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord

This fail is beyond me, ill leave it for others.
#9
Quote by RockFreak000
This fail is beyond me, ill leave it for others.


Can someone take the bait. I'm interested hows the attack of the MT regulars.
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#10
Quote by RockFreak000
This fail is beyond me, ill leave it for others.
If he said you can play the G Mixolydian scale over it, he would be wrong. However, he said to play the D minor pentatonic over the chord. The 5th mode of the D minor pentatonic is C D F G A, which is fine over the Cmaj7 chord. However, that scale has no commoly accepted name, not like Lydian or major scale, so calling it the D minor pentatonic is fine with me, as long as you know why you're doing it.


So no, there is no epic fail, except you.
#11
Quote by RockFreak000
This fail is beyond me, ill leave it for others.


The only point I take an issue with is saying to play A melodic minor over it.
#12
I'll just take a few here.
Quote by rich2k4
there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord.
and the A minor pentatonic scale

go down a minor 3rd and play a A melodic minor scale over the Cmaj7

you can play a A minor major 7th arpeggio over Cmaj7 as well

you can go up a major 3rd and play an E maj arpeggio too

1. It's still the C major scale.

2. A melodic minor would contain an F#, which creates a tritone with the tonic of the chord underneath it.

3. This has a G#, which clashes with the G in Cmaj7, so you wouldn't want to stay on it for long. It's not an "epic fail", though, it's generally fine.

4. See above.
#13
Quote by RockFreak000
This fail is beyond me, ill leave it for others.


how is what i said fail?

i'm helping the guy out.

all the stuff i said is acceptable.
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"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#14
Quote by Eirien
The only point I take an issue with is saying to play A melodic minor over it.
I missed that, the A minor pent, and the D major comment. He is wrong on both counts, though perhaps only to keep things simply.

A Melodic Minor-A B C D E F# G#.
The thid mode, starting on C, has the intervals 1 2 3 4# 5# 6 7, which is called C Lydian Augmented. This will work is the chord lacks a fifth (ie it's only C E B, not C E G B), but watch out if the voicing contains the fifth. Also, call the scale C Lydian Augmented, not A Melodic Minor.

A D major scale contains D E F# G A B C#. I do not suggest this over a Cmaj7 chord, as the B C C# thing will sound odd.

You don't play the A minor pentatonic over a Cmaj7 chord; it is merely called the C major pentatonic. SCALES ARE NOT POSITIONS! However, it may be cool to try "A blues licks" over the Cmaj7 chord.


So mild fail.
#15
Quote by RockFreak000
This fail is beyond me, ill leave it for others.


I see no fail here, aside from the occasional G# and F# which I'd probably want to avoid, other than that most of them would work just fine depending on the sound you were going for.
#16
Quote by :-D
I'll just take a few here.

1. It's still the C major scale.

2. A melodic minor would contain an F#, which creates a tritone with the tonic of the chord underneath it.

3. This has a G#, which clashes with the G in Cmaj7, so you wouldn't want to stay on it for long. It's not an "epic fail", though, it's generally fine.

4. See above.


the F# is what makes it sound cool.

same with the G#.

a cool thing to do, is to use both the G and the G# when soloing over Cmaj7


these approaches will give you that "outside" flavor that sounds cool

but when playing outside, it's not so much the notes you play, it's the phrasing and rhythmic feel of it.

in other words, if your going to play outside over a Cmaj7 you can pretty much play what you want, as long as you do it convincingly, and get yourself back in at the end.

it's an weaving motion, you can start In then go out and then you have to go back in for it to sound effective. there is an art to it.

D major scale is good to play if you want to emphasize the b9.


it all works, in the right context. you just have to know when it's appropriate and when it isn't
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"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#17
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I missed that, the A minor pent, and the D major comment. He is wrong on both counts, though perhaps only to keep things simply.

A Melodic Minor-A B C D E F# G#.
The thid mode, starting on C, has the intervals 1 2 3 4# 5# 6 7, which is called C Lydian Augmented. This will work is the chord lacks a fifth (ie it's only C E B, not C E G B), but watch out if the voicing contains the fifth. Also, call the scale C Lydian Augmented, not A Melodic Minor.

A D major scale contains D E F# G A B C#. I do not suggest this over a Cmaj7 chord, as the B C C# thing will sound odd.

You don't play the A minor pentatonic over a Cmaj7 chord; it is merely called the C major pentatonic. SCALES ARE NOT POSITIONS! However, it may be cool to try "A blues licks" over the Cmaj7 chord.


So mild fail.


i always think of the parent scale. thats just what i do, and have gone into a whole debate on it a few months back.

so in other words, C lydian augmented. i just think A melodic minor, without focusing on the A. don't ask me why, you will tell me it's flawed thinking, and it is. but it works for me and thats all that matters.

when talking about this stuff to someone. i like to say minor pentatonic, and always refer to it in the position that everyone knows. why? because it's simple, gives a good reference point for the person, and easily allows him to hear how the scale is used in the context.

later on he can use all the pentatonic positions he wants. thats up to him.
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"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#18
Quote by rich2k4
i always think of the parent scale. thats just what i do, and have gone into a whole debate on it a few months back.

so in other words, C lydian augmented. i just think A melodic minor, without focusing on the A. don't ask me why, you will tell me it's flawed thinking, and it is. but it works for me and thats all that matters.

when talking about this stuff to someone. i like to say minor pentatonic, and always refer to it in the position that everyone knows. why? because it's simple, gives a good reference point for the person, and easily allows him to hear how the scale is used in the context.


You know despite the fact that people will say this line of thinking is incorrect, I can't help but wish that more people would think along these lines. While it's important to understand that it's not entirely correct, and there's a much deeper explanation behind what's happening. Bottom line is it's easier for the average person to understand, and it helps them expand their options past what they currently know, and it brings them one step closer to understanding the whole picture.

Most players start off learning a their 5 pentatonic boxes, then they learn to link them across the neck. Once they've done that they start to fill their pentatonic boxes with the extra notes that will complete each box as a 7 note scale. From there they start to recognize the intervals between notes, octaves come first then thirds and so forth. Sometime in the distant future we start to recognize exactly what people mean when they tell us a scale is a series of notes and not a shape.

Until someone is up to that point in time, I can almost guarentee that if you tell a guy to play a solo over a Cmaj7 with a c major scale, and get him to do it again with an A minor scale that it won't sound at all the same.
#19
technically no answer said in this thread is wrong. you could play a C# major scale over a CMaj7 if you wanted to. there's nothing wrong with that.

no one would listen to your music, but you could still do it.

...Nothing you've ever...
...Planned on ever turned out...
...The way you planned...


...You're still disappointing them...
#20
Alright thanks for all the help... I'm just gonna use lydian for now...
Quote by allislost
I would say that aetherspear speaks nothing but the truth.
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#21
when your getting into the stuff i'm talking about, like i said, it's not the notes but the phrasing and rhythm.

thats the trick to playing outside.

reason why D major would work better then C# major is because with C# major you would be emphasizing altered tones way too much. it would get you to the point where it just sounds messed up.

it's possible to do, if you do it correctly. it's just a matter of starting a line outside, and then weaving back inside smoothly.

with D major, you already have the sharp 4th which emphasizes C lydian, and then you also have a b9 that you could emphasize. it gets outside, but you still have a lot of "in notes"

with C# major, it just gets hectic.
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#22
I know that you can pretty much play any notes you want as long as you phrase it right, but I'm not at that point yet.
Quote by allislost
I would say that aetherspear speaks nothing but the truth.
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#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
In jazz, Lydian would be the more common choice than the natural major scale.


Not necessarily. Lydian does work well though, especially if its over static major chord.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 16, 2008,
#24
Quote by rich2k4
there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord.

you could play the C major scale

you could play the C Lydian scale

you could play the D minor pentatonic scale

you could also play the E minor pentatonic scale

and the A minor pentatonic scale

you could play a B minor pentatonic scale

go up a 5th, and play a Gmaj7th arpeggio. sounds great.

go up a flat 5th, and play a Gbm7b5 arpeggio, sounds very cool

of course you can play a C major arpeggio

also a D major arpeggio

and even a G major arpeggio.


want to sound even cooler?

go down a minor 3rd and play a A melodic minor scale over the Cmaj7

you can play a A minor major 7th arpeggio over Cmaj7 as well

you can go up a major 3rd and play an E maj arpeggio too

hell, you can even go up a whole step and play a D major scale over a Cmaj7

like i said, there is a lot of stuff you can do over a Cmaj7 chord


great advice man

don't you wish you could just share stuff like that without a bunch of know it alls picking it apart. By the time their through, the point is lost, and it ends up being a waste of time.

BTW the only one Id have any issue with (hehe sorry)..... is the D Major scale... I would probably suggest D major pentatonic instead. ( The C# cant be justified over the Major chord ). Everything else though is right on. You really gave the TS alot of good ideas to work with.
#25
you can change the second, forth and sixth degrees to your liking from the major and possible the fifth depending on the voicing you choose to use
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#27
Quote by GuitarMunky
great advice man

don't you wish you could just share stuff like that without a bunch of know it alls picking it apart. By the time their through, the point is lost, and it ends up being a waste of time.

BTW the only one Id have any issue with (hehe sorry)..... is the D Major scale... I would probably suggest D major pentatonic instead. ( The C# cant be justified over the Major chord ). Everything else though is right on. You really gave the TS alot of good ideas to work with.


D major still works.

i learned a lot of this stuff from scott henderson. the way he describes using D major scale over Cmaj7 is that it emphasizes the b9. suggesting Cmaj7b9

all this stuff, is too complicated for the thread starter. but he can still use a lot of stuff i mentioned.
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#28
No, you can't.
Why not?
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#30
Quote by rich2k4
D major still works.

i learned a lot of this stuff from scott henderson. the way he describes using D major scale over Cmaj7 is that it emphasizes the b9. suggesting Cmaj7b9

all this stuff, is too complicated for the thread starter. but he can still use a lot of stuff i mentioned.


Yeah I understand why. Generally the b9 isnt considered to be an "acceptable" tone over a Major chord (according to what I learned in school.). You base these superimposition's based on what they give you in relationship to the chord ( you know that obviously).

Anyway way Im not arguing with you. Ultimately you can do whatever you think sounds good. And the principle of what you are talking about is absolutely correct. Sometimes some people see whats right or not differently........ The b9 over a Major chord is just something I was taught to avoid. ( and I personally dont care for the sound)
... doesnt mean you cant do it.
#31
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Why not?


Quote by lbc_sublime
you can change the second, forth and sixth degrees to your liking from the major and possible the fifth depending on the voicing you choose to use


It would sound quite horrible to play an Db, Gb or Ab over it..

playing a Db + Cmaj7 would end up being a CMb9.. delicious yum

playing an F# would be alright actually, it would be implying C Lydian and that sounds fine.

The Gb sounds horrible to me... I don't even know what the would be.
#32
Quote by ouchies
It would sound quite horrible to play an Db, Gb or Ab over it..

playing a Db + Cmaj7 would end up being a CMb9.. delicious yum

playing an F# would be alright actually, it would be implying C Lydian and that sounds fine.

The Gb sounds horrible to me... I don't even know what the would be.


... so F# will sound fine, but Gb will sound horrilbe ?

They will both sound like #11
#33
Quote by ouchies
It would sound quite horrible to play an Db, Gb or Ab over it..

playing a Db + Cmaj7 would end up being a CMb9.. delicious yum

playing an F# would be alright actually, it would be implying C Lydian and that sounds fine.

The Gb sounds horrible to me... I don't even know what the would be.


Db (should be C# since it comes from the D major scale) is a good passing tone.

F# is good, but you know that.

Gb is enharmonic to F#, but I'll assume you meant Ab, which is enharmonic to G#. G# is the augmented fifth, so if there is no fifth in the voicing and you play a G#, you will be implying Cmaj7#5.
#35
Quote by ouchies
There is no 5th which is the most important interval
Hardly. It's almost always omitted once you get past the basic triad.


Quote by GuitarMunky
will both sound like #11
Yes, but they will have different functions, though I suppose the idea behind this is that it sounds good and you can justify it later, so I suppose the difference in function is not important.
#36
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Hardly. It's almost always omitted once you get past the basic triad.
u

Yes, but they will have different functions, though I suppose the idea behind this is that it sounds good and you can jstify it later, so I suppose the difference in function is not important.


Wowowow, I seriously don't know what I was thinking. The third is the most important interval, jesus christ. I knew that..
#37
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I suppose the difference in function is not important.


they sound & function as #11 (or b5).
#38
Quote by ouchies
It would sound quite horrible to play an Db, Gb or Ab over it..

playing a Db + Cmaj7 would end up being a CMb9.. delicious yum

playing an F# would be alright actually, it would be implying C Lydian and that sounds fine.

The Gb sounds horrible to me... I don't even know what the would be.


Cmaj7b5


Yeah I understand why. Generally the b9 isnt considered to be an "acceptable" tone over a Major chord (according to what I learned in school.). You base these superimposition's based on what they give you in relationship to the chord ( you know that obviously).

Anyway way Im not arguing with you. Ultimately you can do whatever you think sounds good. And the principle of what you are talking about is absolutely correct. Sometimes some people see whats right or not differently........ The b9 over a Major chord is just something I was taught to avoid. ( and I personally dont care for the sound)
... doesnt mean you cant do it.


yea i know your not arguing with me, i'm just saying.

you're right about the know it all's trying to jump to defense mode.

a lot of the stuff i posted, is straight from scott henderson's mouth. and people still jump to defense mode.

that is like scott henderson coming here, posting the same information, and people telling him he was wrong.

it's funny, and like you said another time, if they didn't know who he was, they would tell him he was wrong.

the thought of amateurs telling one of the most respected jazz fusion guitar players that his advice is wrong, is funny to me.
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"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#40
Quote by ouchies
I meant the scale


umm... explain please y i woudn't make sence to change the 2 4 6 and posibly 5

changing other intervals will conflict wiht the chord and if this isa matter of opinion of what sounds right them i say

to simplify things the 1 3 5 7 are the constant and the others can be changed to the TS liking
song stuck in my head today


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