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#1
what is the difference between the phyrigian and harmonic minor? they both have the same sound? they both have a middle eastern flavor. is one more darker sounding than the other?
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Quote by dubstar92
Tell the friend that due to an amp explosion you are now temporarily deaf and will judge her friend solely on looks.
#4
wat exactly is the phyrigian dominant?is it part of the major scale? or the minor?
equipment:
Esp EC-1000
ibanez rg550
Peavey 5150 combo
Boss ML-2 Metal core pedal
DB-01 crybaby from hell

Quote by dubstar92
Tell the friend that due to an amp explosion you are now temporarily deaf and will judge her friend solely on looks.
#5
Quote by kazra90
wat exactly is the phyrigian dominant?is it part of the major scale? or the minor?
It's the fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale.

Without getting into modal theory, just think of of the Phrygian Dominant scale as a Spanish-sounding scale. It is often used over the major V chord in a minor-key song, so, over an Am G F E progression, you would play A Natural Minor over the first three chords and E Phrygian dominant over the E chord.
#6
which one would u say sounds darker the dominant or regular?
equipment:
Esp EC-1000
ibanez rg550
Peavey 5150 combo
Boss ML-2 Metal core pedal
DB-01 crybaby from hell

Quote by dubstar92
Tell the friend that due to an amp explosion you are now temporarily deaf and will judge her friend solely on looks.
#8
Regular because it has a minor third, whereas phryg dom has a major third.

In my oppinion of course
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#9
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Regular because it has a minor third, whereas phryg dom has a major third.

In my oppinion of course


But the dominant has the augmented second, and en extra minor second.
#11
Quote by TheShred201
The dominant does not have an augmented second. It starts with R, b2, 3.


And what might you call that interval between the b2 and nat3?
#12
A minor 3rd, though in that context, an augmented 2 is correct. It's just a less commonly used intervallic name. However, I didn't mean the spaces in between notes, I was speaking of the degrees of the scale, so we are both right, just about different things.
#13
But the dominant has the augmented second, and en extra minor second
Thats true. I guess it all depends on what you mean by 'dark'. It's just my oppinion that phrygian is darker and phrygian dominant is more exotic.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#14
Quote by TheShred201
The phrygian dominant contains the same notes in the same order as harmonic minor, just starting on the fifth note of the harmonic minor as opposed to the first.
You dont know what a mode is do you? "Phrgian dominant" is a mode, not a scale. It is not a group of notes, it is a group of intervals. It needs a root note (created by whatevers underneath) to sound different from the harmonic minor. This is because of harmonic consonance and dissonance.
#15
Actually, I understand modes perfectly, with Phrygian Dominant being the fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor Scale. I was trying to explain it without using the term MODE however, as I'm not sure that the TS understands them. It makes it a bit more difficult to explain though, but what I meant was that if you took the A harmonic Minor:
A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A,
And started on the fifth note of that, which is E, and went in the same order, you would get:
E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E
Which is the E Phrygian Dominant Mode.
#16
Quote by demonofthenight
You dont know what a mode is do you? "Phrgian dominant" is a mode, not a scale.

Each mode is its own scale - Dorian is a scale as well as a mode, Lydian the same thing, etc. The scale and mode aren't exactly the same thing but they both exist.
#17
Each mode is its own scale - Dorian is a scale as well as a mode, Lydian the same thing, etc. The scale and mode aren't exactly the same thing but they both exist
Could you explain what you mean. I use 'scale' and 'mode' interchangeably, but are you saying the dorian scale is different to the dorian mode?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#18
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Could you explain what you mean. I use 'scale' and 'mode' interchangeably, but are you saying the dorian scale is different to the dorian mode?

I'm saying that the two are often used interchangeably, but that you can use notes from a modal scale without using a mode. If you're playing over a Dm7 G7 vamp, you'll use the D Dorian mode, obviously. However, if you're playing over key-based music in D minor and you play a run such as F G A B C then you've borrowed that B natural from the D Dorian scale even though you're not playing modal music. Or if you have no backing and play in D minor pentatonic with a B note thrown in here and there, you're playing the D Dorian scale though there's no underlying chording to suggest the mode.
#19
Phrygian has the same kind of feel to the harmonic minor yeah but there is different notes. harmonic minor is just natural minor with a manor 7th instead of a minor 7th. phrygian is any major scale but starting and finishing on the third degree of it. so e phrygian is the c major scale but starting and finishing on e. i hope thats helped because alot of people dont explain modes for what they actually are - different degrees of the major scale. if anyone is having problems with this ask me and ill try explaining more.
#20
He's not talking about phrygian, he's talking about phrygian dominant, which is phrygian with a major 3rd, and is the fifth mode of the harmonic minor. Not the phryigian minor, as it is sometimes called to differentiate it, which the 3rd mode of the major scale.
#21
effin hell. ok then! so the 5th mode of the harmonic minor is phrygian dominant. damn thats complex, do you know what all the modes of the harmonic minor are called?
#23
^^As far as I know, that are written as modifications of the major scale modes:
Harmonic Minor
Locrian Nat6
Ionian #5
Dorian #4
Phrygian Dominant (aka harmonic phrygian, Spanish hrygian, and phrygian #3)
Lydian #2
Altered bb7 is what I've seen for the 7th mode of harmonic min or.
#24
At a glance, that looks right, but the fifth mode is usually called Phrygian DOminant and sometimes Spanish Phrygian; we should try to have some kind of convention on here.
#25
Phrygian dominant and harmonic minor will have a very similar sound with no backing, because, in a way, they are the same notes, especially if you use the relative of each other(A harmonic minor and E phrygian dominant, in which case they are enharmonic). You need, at the very least, a drone note. For instance, play the open E string and let it ring. Play an E harmonic minor run, then an E phrygian dominant, and you'll see the difference.
#26
Quote by grampastumpy
Phrygian dominant and harmonic minor will have a very similar sound with no backing, because, in a way, they are the same notes, especially if you use the relative of each other(A harmonic minor and E phrygian dominant, in which case they are enharmonic). You need, at the very least, a drone note. For instance, play the open E string and let it ring. Play an E harmonic minor run, then an E phrygian dominant, and you'll see the difference.


Without chords, the Phrygian Dominant can NOT exist.
#27
There's different ways of looking at it.
The just play the aeroian mode and augment the 7th note of the mode to achive
the harmonic minor.

or you can augment the 5th note of the ionian/root/parent

Here's a song I wrote using the aeroian and phygian.

The phygian is 1 and 1/2 step from the dominate.
The areoian is also 1 and 1/2 step from the ionian.

I intro the solo using harmonic minor and I solo over the chords accordingly,
be it phygian. That's the chord structure of the song.
I wanted it sound like madian a liltte.

You can hear the pitch change when i harminize . I simply wrote the melody around the arpgegios using question and answer medthode. Aerioan twice..then phgian twice.

You can play the phygian mode anytime you want over whatever chords you want.
Pick your notes accordingly..you don't have to play all of the notes or even start from
the begining of the mode.

Joe satriani dose it ...it's call the axis pitch system.

If the rythem guitar is just playing a power chord. (root and 5th)
It dosen't define the chord

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h7eBfixQXw
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 20, 2008,
#28
Quote by isaac_bandits
Without chords, the Phrygian Dominant can NOT exist.
Why not? An E bass note, when emphasized, can establish E as the tonal center, thus making E phrygian dominant E phrygian dominant as opposed to A harmonic minor. It's enough to distinguish it. At least that's what I think, I'd like a further explanation if it's not too much to ask.
#30
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, anything played within the phrygian dominant can be seen as an extension of a chord rooted on the E...so...were you agreeing with me or something? What I said was that at least a drone note was needed. When you said without chords, I thought you meant like, the textbook definition(three or more notes).
#31
yes..the root of the chord.

example if it's E....play whatever E mode, even if it's the third chord of the parent scale, which is the phygian....
Look at the simular notes rather than the differences.

it depends how you play the notes and when

There's rythem and feel to the song of course.
#33
Hmm...you do have a point...I guess what is needed then, is some form of establishing the tonal center. Some sort of harmonic implication giving the tonal center its...tonal centerishness.
#34
Yes...a tonal center or a reference piont is very helpful..especially
playing in a band.lol

That's what arppegios are for. You can solo of of the 3rd, 5th, 7th of the chord.
kind of like a sub root.

once you train your ears..you can hear it, and it'll makesence to you faster.

think in terms fo pitch.
Even if you play the Eb major scale you're still playing a C ionian scale at a differnt
pitch
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 21, 2008,
#35
So much misinformation...

Quote by TheShred201
Actually, I understand modes perfectly, with Phrygian Dominant being the fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor Scale. I was trying to explain it without using the term MODE however, as I'm not sure that the TS understands them. It makes it a bit more difficult to explain though, but what I meant was that if you took the A harmonic Minor:
A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A,
And started on the fifth note of that, which is E, and went in the same order, you would get:
E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E
Which is the E Phrygian Dominant Mode.
Never underestimate the T/S. Regardless, you obviously dont know what a mode is. Once again, the notes of a mode dont matter, its the interval those notes make harmonically with the tonal center (or is the word root?) That goes for this guy 'V' (look at the quote below)
Quote by grouch
phrygian is any major scale but starting and finishing on the third degree of it. so e phrygian is the c major scale but starting and finishing on e. i hope thats helped because alot of people dont explain modes for what they actually are - different degrees of the major scale. if anyone is having problems with this ask me and ill try explaining more.


Quote by :-)
I'm saying that the two are often used interchangeably, but that you can use notes from a modal scale without using a mode. If you're playing over a Dm7 G7 vamp, you'll use the D Dorian mode, obviously. However, if you're playing over key-based music in D minor and you play a run such as F G A B C then you've borrowed that B natural from the D Dorian scale even though you're not playing modal music. Or if you have no backing and play in D minor pentatonic with a B note thrown in here and there, you're playing the D Dorian scale though there's no underlying chording to suggest the mode.
Your not wrong, its not really misinformation, but its different to how I view. I think modes as descriptions of intervals which can be used consonantly together. The way I use them are as additions (spice?) to pentatonics, which are almost perfectly consonant notes. When you use that B as a modal note, not just as a passing note or an accidental, you are using dorian IMO

Quote by grouch
effin hell. ok then! so the 5th mode of the harmonic minor is phrygian dominant. damn thats complex, do you know what all the modes of the harmonic minor are called?
And the melodic minor and all their formulas. I'm a really bored kid, I'd go nuts without my guitar. Anyway, the names arent the important part, the formulas are.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Calling something the D Dorian mode implies that you're playing modally while D Dorian scale does not.
wat?
Quote by grampastumpy
Phrygian dominant and harmonic minor will have a very similar sound with no backing, because, in a way, they are the same notes, especially if you use the relative of each other(A harmonic minor and E phrygian dominant, in which case they are enharmonic). You need, at the very least, a drone note. For instance, play the open E string and let it ring. Play an E harmonic minor run, then an E phrygian dominant, and you'll see the difference.
Your kidding? Modes CANT exist without some harmonic factor implying a tonal center. It needs a bass, arpeggio, chord or riff underneath. You can also imply a tonal center by using alot of arpeggios, like what friedman talks about in that video.
Quote by isaac_bandits
Without chords, the Phrygian Dominant can NOT exist.
Damn those friends of yours. If you had no friends, like me, you would know how to play modally without a rhthym section.
Quote by ordinary
Yes...a tonal center or a reference piont (wat? is very helpful..especially
playing in a band.lol

That's what arppegios are for. You can solo of of the 3rd, 5th, 7th of the chord.
kind of like a sub root

once you train your ears..you can hear it, and it'll makesence to you faster.

think in terms fo pitch.
Even if you play the Eb major scale you're still playing a C ionian scale at a differnt
pitch.
I'm sorry, but I dont understand any of your posts tonight.
#36
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It's the fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale.

Without getting into modal theory, just think of of the Phrygian Dominant scale as a Spanish-sounding scale. It is often used over the major V chord in a minor-key song, so, over an Am G F E progression, you would play A Natural Minor over the first three chords and E Phrygian dominant over the E chord.



Wha!? There's modes for the harmonic minor


I just got major modes memorized, now this!?


Well I guess I should get started
hue
#37
Quote by demonofthenight


Never underestimate the T/S. Regardless, you obviously dont know what a mode is. Once again, the notes of a mode dont matter, its the interval those notes make harmonically with the tonal center (or is the word root?) That goes for this guy 'V' (look at the quote below)



I apologize for underestimating the TS. About modes--what do you consider necessary in a definition modes that I haven't at least attempted to explain. If you wanted intervals instead of notes, harmonic minor would be 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7, and Phrygian dominant would be 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7. Pertaining to the tonal center or root--how much does one truly need to emphasize this. If I played E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E straight up, one octave, with nothing behind it, would you tell me that I played A harmonic minor, or E phrygian dominant. Does the fact that it starts and ends on E not emphasize that as a root? I do understand that in general, something under the melody needs to establish the tonal center-In my lessons recently, we've been going through the modes, constructing a chord progression which emphasizes the root, and often the unique note or notes of the mode--For E phrygian, this would be the root and flat two, or F and E. Then once we built a progression, we improvised over it using the mode which it defined. I apologize if I haven't explained everything which makes something a mode. If you have something which Should be said in a definition of modes that I haven't talked about in this thread, please let me know, as I'm always looking to improve my knowledge of theory.
Last edited by TheShred201 at Apr 21, 2008,
#38
There's no G# in the E phygian mode.

It's a minor mode.

The only difference between the phygian and aeroian mode is
The second note of the aeroian mode is played 1/2 step down to
obtain the phygian.


Bascially if you use the root note as a hook piont. The phygian has the 1/2 step
on the higher pitch side.

The harmonic minor has the 1/2 step on the opposite side.
by raising the 7th note of aeroian mode 1/2 pitch.

look at the simularities

Have you all ever notice...how the 4th and 7th note of major scale are drop
to obtain the pentatonic scale ? Have you ever notice..these are the notes
that are going to shift 1/2 step up or down..when you change keys to the next
scale in the circle of 5th.

by raising the 4th 1/2 step...it becomes the 7th ...the 5th becomes the root.
do it in reverse...when you want to go to the Flat side.

example: play the mixolian mode and raise the 7th note 1/2 pitch and you'll
get the ionian mode.

play the ionian mode and raise the 4th note 1/2 pitch and you'll get the lydian mode.

play the aeroian mode and raise the 6th note 1/2 step and you'll get the dorian mode.

Play the aeroian mode and drop the 5th note 1/2 step and you'll get the locrian mode.

The simplist way i can explain it is...i use the aeroian mode as the master/refernce piont. I wrap the aeroian to obtain the other minor modes.

I use the ionian mode as a major mode reference..i wrap the ionian to obtain the
lydian and mixolian.

So when comes to playing other scale..I'm just wraping.
The harmonic minor scale is just another scale to me.

it's the same principle as playing chords. I start off with a Cmaj..then wrap it.
if it say Cmaj7...i just add the 7th note as instructed.

If it say Csus4...I remove the 3rd and add the 4th.
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 21, 2008,
#39
Quote by Ordinary
There's no G# in the E phygian mode.

He's talking about Phrygian Dominant.

Quote by demonofthenight
Your not wrong, its not really misinformation, but its different to how I view. I think modes as descriptions of intervals which can be used consonantly together. The way I use them are as additions (spice?) to pentatonics, which are almost perfectly consonant notes. When you use that B as a modal note, not just as a passing note or an accidental, you are using dorian IMO

I know I'm not wrong. We'll just agree to disagree on that one.
#40
Quote by demonofthenight
Damn those friends of yours. If you had no friends, like me, you would know how to play modally without a rhthym section.


You don't arpeggiate chords at all? Arpeggios imply chords, and therefore you do not need actually strummed chords, but atleast implied chords. However, if you only run up and down the "phrygian dominant" it will resolve to its relative minor.
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