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#1
I want to be classically trained, as Alexi Laiho and numerous other legends have been. What would this consist of?

Also does anyone know of anyone/anywhere within Stockport (or not too far from) that would classically train me?
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#2
Quote by LeperAffinity
I want to be classically trained, as Alexi Laiho and numerous other legends have been. What would this consist of?

Also does anyone know of anyone/anywhere within Stockport (or not too far from) that would classically train me?



do you mean play the classical guitar, as in the nylon string acoustic? Or are you just using the term to mean "studied music".... as in theory and all that goes with it?
#3
Not play the classical guitar no, I'm not entirely sure what it is, but all the guitarists that I've seen that have been classically trained have very good technique and theory so probably the "studied music" version.
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#4
Quote by LeperAffinity
Not play the classical guitar no, I'm not entirely sure what it is, but all the guitarists that I've seen that have been classically trained have very good technique and theory so probably the "studied music" version.


so basically you want to study theory with a teacher & or in a classroom setting.

preferably a teacher with some real credentials, so you can consider yourself to be "classically trained" when your through.
#6
Quote by ouchies
Classically trained means they learned classical guitar

which i don't think laiho was.
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#8
^yeah articles always say something like "so and so was a classically trained (orchestral instrument) before picking up the guitar.
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#9
You'll never be as good as any violinist who seriously takes up guitar. It's sad, but its true.
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#10
Quote by Corwinoid
You'll never be as good as any violinist who seriously takes up guitar. It's sad, but its true.


Thats crap. It all comes down to how much work you put in. It has nothing to do with playing violin, they are completely different instruments.
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#11
Playing classical music doesn't make you a better metal player, if that's your aim. If you want to play classical music than good for you
#12
Since the talk is about teaching and stuff like that...wanted to ask so i wont create new topic.
Went to first my private lesson... Guy made me to pick alternatively strings whole lesson (1hr) simply and then with extra fret between fingers to stretch my muscles. Is it good? Should i try to find another teach or its ok? And why he didnt ask me what i can do and what i cant....
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#13
Quote by radiantmoon
Thats crap. It all comes down to how much work you put in. It has nothing to do with playing violin, they are completely different instruments.


Well, to be fair, what he means (if he doesn't mind some words being put into his mouth), is that violinists who are classically trained have the benefit of understanding the discipline required and are familiar with correct practice, and hence, are going to simply leave your average modern guitarist in the dust.

Hell, by the standards of your average pit goer, the average violinist would be extremely impressive within a year - like, OMG, you can SHRED dude!

So, cor's rule, while not actually a rule, would stand up well in practice, based on the musician's i've known.
#14
The average violin player is better than the average guitarist. Both have plenty of great players, but the guitar has many people who screw around and aren't actually any good.
#15
the trick is being able to carry it over. if you can't carry it over, then its like going to medical school to be a farmer. bad analogy.

If possible you want a teacher who can help you connect what you're learning to your playing.
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#16
You need to be totally into theory. I go out of my way to study theory, staying up working out modes, chords, learning jazz theory, etc. I don't have a classical teacher, but I'd say you really should get one.
#17
I'm "classically trained" I just means you learned a classical guitar or some form of it. Towards the later part in being classically trained though, the teacher (at least mine) started theoy with me.
#18
Quote by Freepower
Well, to be fair, what he means (if he doesn't mind some words being put into his mouth), is that violinists who are classically trained have the benefit of understanding the discipline required and are familiar with correct practice, and hence, are going to simply leave your average modern guitarist in the dust.

Hell, by the standards of your average pit goer, the average violinist would be extremely impressive within a year - like, OMG, you can SHRED dude!

So, cor's rule, while not actually a rule, would stand up well in practice, based on the musician's i've known.

You know when you're a kid, and you have a cookie that you have to share with someone... so you cut it in half, and tell them you're getting the bigger half? You just got the smaller half of my argument.

A trained violinist will pick up any other string instrument faster than any other musician. A trained violinist hears differently than other musicians do. And it's pretty much a truism that violinists will write music for stringed instruments better than other musicians ever will.

I don't mean to be all :downs: on guitarists here, but if you take two musicians of equal relative strength on their instruments; so say I've got a violinist better than 95% of other violinists, and I've got a guitarist that's better than 95% of other guitarists, the violinist is going to just waste the guitar player in every aspect of musicianship.

That doesn't mean a violinist is going to just pick up a guitar one day and shred on guitar -- but it does mean that if a violinist puts the practice time in, they'll develop the skill to play the instrument probably three times as fast as a dedicated guitarist did. The reverse isn't true either. It also means that if you have a violinist and a guitarist of the same caliber sit down and write music, the violinist will write better for the strings, and probably other melodic instruments as well.

Part of the writing better music thing comes from the agility of a violin. After a year, you'll have a violinist playing music that is almost impossible on guitar. And this is what most violinists consider easy. Once you develop that agility, and the ability to hear and play music like that, it's incredibly easy to transfer it to something like the guitar. If the violinist gets use to the different scale length of the guitar, they're going to sit down and just have more agility, because it transfers over so well.

I really don't mean to **** in your cheerios or anything, but yeah...
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#19
He does actually play the guitar, people.


I think it has to do with the fact that some many guitarists don't take the instrument seriously and just play 3-chord songs, while other musicians actually develop their technique and don't just use music to get girls.
#21
Quote by ouchies
Yeah but it would be safe to say that there are way more guitar players.


yes it would be, and you dont have a bunch of kids playing "violin hero" either.

There are good and bad players on any instrument.
#22
Quote by bangoodcharlote
don't just use music to get girls.
Then what's the point?
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#25
Quote by Corwinoid


I don't mean to be all :downs: on guitarists here, but if you take two musicians of equal relative strength on their instruments; so say I've got a violinist better than 95% of other violinists, and I've got a guitarist that's better than 95% of other guitarists, the violinist is going to just waste the guitar player in every aspect of musicianship.


But a conservatory trained classical guitarist in the 95th percentile would probably have a great time jamming and later go for beer with the violinist to talk shop. He's a much better comparison.


Anyway it starts to rankle after a while how the rest of the musical world tends to look down on guitarists simply because it's accessible and masses of idiots flock to it. Let's all do what we can to change that view.

The way I see it, any instrument, be it violin, french horn, voice, guitar, jew's harp, triangle, is worthy of serious musicianship. Some instruments (violin, french horn) require physical technique at a higher level. That's athletics, it has nothing to do with music. Musicianship exists independent of instrument.
#26
Yeah, I'm dating a violinist now just because she's pure awesome to hang out with like that... but hey.

The rest of the musical world tends to look down on everyone else anyway, it's really not just guitarists. I mean, what do you do with a bass player who sucks? Give him two sticks, put him in back and call him a percussionist. What do you do if he can't do that? Take one away, put him in front, and call him a conductor. How do you tune two flautists? Shoot one. While these are obvious jokes, people really kind of feel this way about every other type of musician, even though you also have the acceptability and warmth thing towards other artists.

Hell, I'm a guitarist, and I'll be the first person to say guitar's a ****ty instrument. It's bad for just about everything. Perfect waste of some good firewood, really.
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#27
Quote by Freepower
Well, to be fair, what he means (if he doesn't mind some words being put into his mouth), is that violinists who are classically trained have the benefit of understanding the discipline required and are familiar with correct practice, and hence, are going to simply leave your average modern guitarist in the dust.

Hell, by the standards of your average pit goer, the average violinist would be extremely impressive within a year - like, OMG, you can SHRED dude!

So, cor's rule, while not actually a rule, would stand up well in practice, based on the musician's i've known.


And people who have been trained in classical guitar dont understand the discipline? It all comes down to the individual and how much time they put in, just because you have played violin doesnt mean your going to be better than someone who hasnt. They are two completely different instruments and are both challenging.
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#28
All guitarist=\=musicians
violinist=musician
musician=someone who does it for the music
musician>idiots that want to get laid

Violinists cant get the girls or the money or the fame like a guitarist, so why do they do it, they do it for the music. Thus giving them a tremendous ammount of motivation for their instrument, a tremendous ammount of skill and musical knowledge.
Guitarist's, on the other hand, dont need to be good to get these things, they just need cool haircuts. So you get idiots who pick up a guitar and lower the standard of guitar players.
Personally I quite like this arrangment, people think I'm good at guitar. If I was a violinist or a saxophonist or anything else, everyone would say I was just a violinist or whatever. It only gets annoying when I try to play formally or when I discuss being a musician, after I say I'm a guitarist they're suddenly uninterested.
#29
Quote by Corwinoid
You know when you're a kid, and you have a cookie that you have to share with someone... so you cut it in half, and tell them you're getting the bigger half? You just got the smaller half of my argument.

A trained violinist will pick up any other string instrument faster than any other musician. A trained violinist hears differently than other musicians do. And it's pretty much a truism that violinists will write music for stringed instruments better than other musicians ever will.

I don't mean to be all :downs: on guitarists here, but if you take two musicians of equal relative strength on their instruments; so say I've got a violinist better than 95% of other violinists, and I've got a guitarist that's better than 95% of other guitarists, the violinist is going to just waste the guitar player in every aspect of musicianship.

That doesn't mean a violinist is going to just pick up a guitar one day and shred on guitar -- but it does mean that if a violinist puts the practice time in, they'll develop the skill to play the instrument probably three times as fast as a dedicated guitarist did. The reverse isn't true either. It also means that if you have a violinist and a guitarist of the same caliber sit down and write music, the violinist will write better for the strings, and probably other melodic instruments as well.

Part of the writing better music thing comes from the agility of a violin. After a year, you'll have a violinist playing music that is almost impossible on guitar. And this is what most violinists consider easy. Once you develop that agility, and the ability to hear and play music like that, it's incredibly easy to transfer it to something like the guitar. If the violinist gets use to the different scale length of the guitar, they're going to sit down and just have more agility, because it transfers over so well.

I really don't mean to **** in your cheerios or anything, but yeah...


You really couldnt be more wrong if you tried A violin is an instrument just like the guitar is an instrument and they are both very different. There is no evidence that playing the violin before playing the guitar will make you superior to someone who hasnt. I cant quite grasp how you think the violinst will waste the guitarist in every aspect, I have seen guitar peformances that have blown violin peformances out of the water and vice versa. It all comes down to the musician, not the instrument. Violin is not a superior instrument, its just a different one. How do you know violin players hear differently, you are speaking on behalf of everyone that plays an instrument, you dont know what other people hear because you are not them. And saying a violin player will write better for stringed instruments is completely subjective, what is better? What sounds better to your little ears may well indeed sound like crap to another.
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#30
Quote by radiantmoon
A violin is an instrument just like the guitar is an instrument and they are both very different. There is no evidence that playing the violin before playing the guitar will make you superior to someone who hasnt. I cant quite grasp how you think the violinst will waste the guitarist in every aspect, I have seen guitar peformances that have blown violin peformances out of the water and vice versa. It all comes down to the musician, not the instrument. Violin is not a superior instrument, its just a different one. How do you know violin players hear differently, you are speaking on behalf of everyone that plays an instrument, you dont know what other people hear because you are not them. And saying a violin player will write better for stringed instruments is completely subjective, what is better? What sounds better to your little ears may well indeed sound like crap to another.


+1

Well said
#31
Quote by radiantmoon
You really couldnt be more wrong if you tried A violin is an instrument just like the guitar is an instrument and they are both very different. There is no evidence that playing the violin before playing the guitar will make you superior to someone who hasnt. I cant quite grasp how you think the violinst will waste the guitarist in every aspect, I have seen guitar peformances that have blown violin peformances out of the water and vice versa. It all comes down to the musician, not the instrument. Violin is not a superior instrument, its just a different one. How do you know violin players hear differently, you are speaking on behalf of everyone that plays an instrument, you dont know what other people hear because you are not them. And saying a violin player will write better for stringed instruments is completely subjective, what is better? What sounds better to your little ears may well indeed sound like crap to another.
Ok, while that's a nice knee jerk... the reality of it will surprise you.

There's actually a ton of evidence that learning a non-fretted instrument before learning anything else is beneficial to you as a musician -- 15 minutes on google should give you plenty of research on this. Now, I know I'm not scientific evidence or anything, but I can sure as hell tell you that out of the hundred and fifty or so musicians I work with every day, the violinists and cellists literally function differently than everyone else I'm around.

I can also tell you that you can listen to Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and thirty of the best composers you've ever heard of, or haven't heard of, they're almost all pianists, and how they write for the strings section -- and you can listen to a professional violinist just sketch something for violin and absolutely blow them away with how they work with strings. Not that they'd write any better for an entire orchestra, or for piano... but just how they work with the stringed instruments.

Part of this comes from the incredible agility a violinist has. I'm not sure if there's a good way to explain this or not... I can give you metrics for certain instruments, things that most professional tuba players can do, and can't do. What flutes can/can't do. What guitars can/can't do (We can play sextuple stops... but we can't make enough sound on stage :P). But I can't even begin to describe that even an average violinist can do things on the violin that most professional guitarists doesn't even understand.

If you don't understand how I can think a violinist will waste an equal caliber guitarist... and don't get me wrong, I've seen some really impressive things done on guitar... then understand that I actually see it every day. I work with both groups of people, and I get paid good money to summarily judge how good they are.

It's nice and all to say "It just comes down to the musician." Which completely disregards that I'm saying you want to take two people who have put in just as much time and effort into it, and have just as much technical skill on their instrument. And yes, I agree they're different instruments -- there are things we find difficult, that are really easy on a violin... there are things a violinist finds easy, that we think are incredibly difficult. But after seeing this plays out so often, you just have to realize that the violin has a huge advantage over almost everything else.

I hate to make an appeal to authority argument here, but I'll also admit that a lot of my argument is opinionated. It's an opinion that I've developed over time, because I watch and compare the very best musicians on each of these instruments day in and day out.
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#32
Quote by Corwinoid
Ok, while that's a nice knee jerk... the reality of it will surprise you.

There's actually a ton of evidence that learning a non-fretted instrument before learning anything else is beneficial to you as a musician -- 15 minutes on google should give you plenty of research on this. Now, I know I'm not scientific evidence or anything, but I can sure as hell tell you that out of the hundred and fifty or so musicians I work with every day, the violinists and cellists literally function differently than everyone else I'm around.

I can also tell you that you can listen to Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and thirty of the best composers you've ever heard of, or haven't heard of, they're almost all pianists, and how they write for the strings section -- and you can listen to a professional violinist just sketch something for violin and absolutely blow them away with how they work with strings. Not that they'd write any better for an entire orchestra, or for piano... but just how they work with the stringed instruments.

Part of this comes from the incredible agility a violinist has. I'm not sure if there's a good way to explain this or not... I can give you metrics for certain instruments, things that most professional tuba players can do, and can't do. What flutes can/can't do. What guitars can/can't do (We can play sextuple stops... but we can't make enough sound on stage :P). But I can't even begin to describe that even an average violinist can do things on the violin that most professional guitarists doesn't even understand.

If you don't understand how I can think a violinist will waste an equal caliber guitarist... and don't get me wrong, I've seen some really impressive things done on guitar... then understand that I actually see it every day. I work with both groups of people, and I get paid good money to summarily judge how good they are.

It's nice and all to say "It just comes down to the musician." Which completely disregards that I'm saying you want to take two people who have put in just as much time and effort into it, and have just as much technical skill on their instrument. And yes, I agree they're different instruments -- there are things we find difficult, that are really easy on a violin... there are things a violinist finds easy, that we think are incredibly difficult. But after seeing this plays out so often, you just have to realize that the violin has a huge advantage over almost everything else.

I hate to make an appeal to authority argument here, but I'll also admit that a lot of my argument is opinionated. It's an opinion that I've developed over time, because I watch and compare the very best musicians on each of these instruments day in and day out.


Maybe you should list some things that the average violinist can do that a guitarist can't? Almost all of my friends play violin, but I was never blown away as you are. They are all damn good too, one is even the number one player in new jersey (I'm not sure if this is self proclaimed or not, but thats what i've heard from him and numerous people.)

edit: and last year I picked up a few violin study books to go through and it wasn't too bad.
#33
being classically trained to me means that you have been taught in depthly the ins and outs of music theory. It can be applied to any instrument. Having good music theory will help you pick up other instruments well. I could never play piano then once ihad a good grip on theory after playing guitar for so long the piano became much easier. I would imagine a classically trained guitarist would have noroblem going from instrument to instrument and being able to make it sound decent after a little while
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#34
Quote by Syn Harvest
being classically trained to me means that you have been taught in depthly the ins and outs of music theory. It can be applied to any instrument. Having good music theory will help you pick up other instruments well. I could never play piano then once ihad a good grip on theory after playing guitar for so long the piano became much easier. I would imagine a classically trained guitarist would have noroblem going from instrument to instrument and being able to make it sound decent after a little while


Not really. Learning to play classical music doesn't require any more theory knowledge than learning to play rock does. All you need is to know how to read standard notation. I have played brass instruments for 9 years, and made All-State band three years running, and I didn't know what an arpeggio was until last summer, and I knew nothing at all about scales, keys, resolutions, chords, or anything else.
Last edited by CowboyUp at Apr 23, 2008,
#35
Quote by CowboyUp
Not really. Learning to play classical music doesn't require any more theory knowledge than learning to play rock does. All you need is to know how to read standard notation. I have played brass instruments for 9 years, and made All-State band three years running, and I didn't know what an arpeggio was until last summer, and I knew nothing at all about scales, keys, resolutions, chords, or anything else.


First i didnt say anything about classical music just that being classically trained means that you have a good knowledge of music theory. Also as someone who plays Classical and rock, Classical does take much more knowledge of theory to do it well then rock does
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#36
Quote by Corwinoid
I hate to make an appeal to authority argument here, but I'll also admit that a lot of my argument is opinionated. It's an opinion that I've developed over time, because I watch and compare the very best musicians on each of these instruments day in and day out.


Just out of curiousity: What is your job?
#37
^ Composer/conductor, I also teach, and perform, and have some management responsibility.
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#38
Quote by Syn Harvest
First i didnt say anything about classical music just that being classically trained means that you have a good knowledge of music theory. Also as someone who plays Classical and rock, Classical does take much more knowledge of theory to do it well then rock does

Not really. I could play Bach etudes on my trumpet right out of the book, but since I had no theory knowledge or ear development, only sight reading skills, I couldn't even noodle out the riff to Crazy Train on the trumpet.

Music theory knowledge isn't required to play any style of music, much less one that doesn't feature any improvisation. Hell, it isn't really even required to write anything either.
#39
Quote by CowboyUp
Not really. I could play Bach etudes on my trumpet right out of the book, but since I had no theory knowledge or ear development, only sight reading skills, I couldn't even noodle out the riff to Crazy Train on the trumpet.

Music theory knowledge isn't required to play any style of music, much less one that doesn't feature any improvisation. Hell, it isn't really even required to write anything either.



Ya i can play anything to but writing it is a different story and thats where theory helps
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#40
Violin probably trains your ear better than guitar because there are no frets so you have to hear if th note is in tune but i can't really think of any other way it is better.
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