#1
Right, So I'm learning some King Crimson pieces, and I've come across a problem.

I can't seem to determine the key center for their track "I talk to the wind" from the 1968 album "In the court of the crimson king"

Chords as are follows:

E (E Ab B)
C7 (C E G Bb)
G7 (G B D F)
Am (A C E)
B7 (B Eb A Gb)

I am so lost. I wanted to think it was E minor, but that couldn't do. I see 4 flats, which would be.....Ab Major, but there is also an A in the group.....

Other than that, I have a jazz question. I am learning "Oleo" and the key is Bb.

Chord progression is

Bbmaj7
G7
C-7
F7

with on an off flat sevenths. How come they b the 7th periodically?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#2
I'm pretty sure it's E major. There are a few chords outside of the key, but that's where it seems to resolve. (also, you've mixed up several enharmonic notes in your chord names: E is E G# B, and B7 is B D# F# A). Every chord in a given progression does not have to be strictly in the key.


As for oleo, the sevenths are flat or not depending on the chord's function (I think that's your question?). I can try explaining some general ideas of chord function if you'd like.
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#3
For Oleo and the flat sevenths, please do. I'm currently teaching myself (I'm entirely self taught due to the fact that I do not have the time or money to hire a first class teacher) chord extensions and such, and I did notice a pattern with seventh chords. However, I got thrown off by the fact that there are 10 of them.

I saw this pattern

B C D E F G A
G A B C D E F
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B


but thats about all.

I thought E major as well, but the natural G following the C threw me off. Is it for a cadence of some sort?

And I thought Ab = G# ?

Reason I was wondering the tonal center was I wanted to do some lengthy improv. with it, but I couldn't figure out where to start. Should I just solo through each chord by highlighting the 1-3-5s and giving some passing tones?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#4
Quote by progbass
For Oleo and the flat sevenths, please do. I'm currently teaching myself (I'm entirely self taught due to the fact that I do not have the time or money to hire a first class teacher) chord extensions and such, and I did notice a pattern with seventh chords. However, I got thrown off by the fact that there are 10 of them.

I saw this pattern

B C D E F G A
G A B C D E F
E F G A B C D
C D E F G A B


but thats about all.

I thought E major as well, but the natural G following the C threw me off. Is it for a cadence of some sort?

And I thought Ab = G# ?

Reason I was wondering the tonal center was I wanted to do some lengthy improv. with it, but I couldn't figure out where to start. Should I just solo through each chord by highlighting the 1-3-5s and giving some passing tones?


Ab SOUNDS like G#, but when you are referring to a sharp key you use sharps. In this case he is talking about E major so its G#.

And for the improv, yeah pretty much 1-3-5-7s and passing tones. You could use scales for each chord but that becomes a little tricky. It's best if you stick to chord tones and passing tones (I reckon). But here's the link to show what scale goes with what chord.

http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents/scale_syllabus.pdf

In jazz the dominant seven chord is used very often and is referred to as a 'V' chord. So if it's an A7 that chord is the V chord of D major/minor.
#5
I understand that the V is always a 7th chord, but I was wondering how everything worked when you made every chord within the scale a seventh. Obviously things are going to be different. I do believe the V is called the dominant seventh chord?

For the enharmonics, okay, It's really just to prevent confusion. Got it.

For example, C7th (I do believe that is the name, C E G B) is a tonic chord, but what about the iim chord if you stacked another b3rd on top ? That would make a Dm7th?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#6
Quote by progbass
For example, C7th (I do believe that is the name, C E G B) is a tonic chord, but what about the iim chord if you stacked another b3rd on top ? That would make a Dm7th?


CEGB is a major 7th

7th chords are 1 3 5 and b7
maj7th chords are 1 3 5 7
i believe m7ths are 1 b3 5 b7
but i dont know what 1 b3 5 7 is?

EDIT:fixed
#7
but i dont know what 1 b3 5 7 is?


mMaj7. It's generally associated with harmonic and melodic minor, but it's very rarely seen.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
Quote by Archeo Avis
mMaj7. It's generally associated with harmonic and melodic minor, but it's very rarely seen.


Yeah I really only like that sound when used in a line cliche like

Dm - DmM7 - Dm7 - Dm6



-5--5--5--5--
-6--6--6--6--
-7--6--5--4--
-------------
-5--5--5--5--
-------------

#9
Dm - DmM7 - Dm7 - Dm6


Looks like a pitch axis progression. It's the kind of thing I would use.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Apr 25, 2008,
#11
Quote by :-D
^Archeo...a smiley? I'm stunned.


What smiley? I don't see a smiley...
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#13
so what about these half diminished 7th chords, built upon the 7th note of a major scale, what are their application.

Or better yet, what is the 7th chord application in general? Why choose to use a seventh?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#14
Quote by progbass
Or better yet, what is the 7th chord application in general? Why choose to use a seventh?


Because they sound different, and they express tonality much better than triads.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#15
it seems that you are mostly stacking a minor 3rd of the 5th of each chord no?

I think I may get it now. But for my new question....


How (and more importantly why) is one able to use 7th chords that use notes outside of the key center?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#16
How (and more importantly why) is one able to use 7th chords that use notes outside of the key center?


The 7th chords we're talking about do not use notes outside of the key. You most certainly can, but the reasoning behind it is something you can't just sum up in a post. People go to school for years to study this.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
so in short....

just play it, if it sounds good, don't FRET over it.


thanks for all the help guys, seriously. I am getting to work on the KC piece now.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#18
Sorry for the late reply...

First off, read this: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/the_guide_to/absolute_beginners_guide_to_chord_progressions.html

It should help give you a basic idea of chord functions.

Now, one thing that's not included so much in the article is 7th chords. Major 7ths are usually the tonal center, minor sevenths the predominant, and dominant 7ths the dominant, although obviously there are other possibilities. Keep in mind that in jazz music, the tonal centers can switch quite often in the midst of a piece.

If we do a quick analysis of Oleo, we can start with the first 4 bars. They have a repeating pattern: Bbma7, G7, Cm7, F7. Bbma7 is the tonic, which makes sense since it's a major 7. G7 doesn't make much sense at first: it's not in Bb. However, we look at the next chord, Cm7: this is the ii7 chord in Bb, so it fits in the key. So why is the G7 there? G7 is the dominant in the key of C minor, so it resolves well to the Cm7. This type of dominant outside of a key that resolves to a chord INSIDE the key is called a secondary dominant.

Back to the Cm7: this is the ii7 in Bbma7, and thus we might expect it to function as a predominant, preparing the dominant chord. And, lo and behold, the next chord is F7: the dominant in the key of Bb. The F7 resolves nicely back to the tonic, Bbma7, and the series starts again.

There are a few other little devices used in the remainder of the piece, but a lot of it can be explained very easily in terms of tonics, dominants and predominants.
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