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#1
I always see people say that someone who is truly awesome at guitar is able to sound good even playing on crappy 2nd rate gear, anyone got some examples of this in video form preferably?

Only one I could think of is probably the vid of Jason Becker covering "Black Star" when he was in high school.
Originally Posted by SkyValley
yeah im a virgin but im also pretty good at things like ping-pong and drawing pictures of people playing water polo so it balances out
#3
I don't know if Jason Becker fits the criteria of a "virtuoso".

Anyways, most virtuoso videos on youtube or sites like that feature people with some pretty expensive instruments. I can't really think of any at the moment.
#4

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#5
Jimmy Page playing his Danelectro.

Those guitars were mail-order Sears catalog guitars back then. Pieces of ****, but he liked them.
#7
Quote by The Madcap
I don't know if Jason Becker fits the criteria of a "virtuoso".

Anyways, most virtuoso videos on youtube or sites like that feature people with some pretty expensive instruments. I can't really think of any at the moment.


Jason Becker was a virtuoso, he was better than a ****load of today's "virtuoso's". So why wouldn't he fit?
#9
Quote by its_alive
wow.

fail.


Here's a nice little tip for you:
Saying "Fail" to everything does NOT make you cool.
We've drained full confession booths, polluted drinking wells with our repentances, and then stood grinning with our arms around the shoulder of a rotting child.



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#10
Quote by The Madcap
I don't know if Jason Becker fits the criteria of a "virtuoso".



epic fail.
#11
Quote by The Madcap
I don't know if Jason Becker fits the criteria of a "virtuoso".

Anyways, most virtuoso videos on youtube or sites like that feature people with some pretty expensive instruments. I can't really think of any at the moment.



Seriously, you're kidding right? Jason Becker not a virtuoso? He was and still is the most impressive guitarist to date in my opinion, and I've seen/ heard of quite a bit of guitarist.
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Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
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Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
#13
Quote by shred745
Jason Becker and Marty Friedman win the thread.



FIXED!
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
#15
Quote by RX120D
Jason Becker was a virtuoso, he was better than a ****load of today's "virtuoso's". So why wouldn't he fit?
Ah, I find myself a bit scared to say my opinion with Xiaoxi in this thread, but here it goes.

You have piano and violin virtuosi. If a pianist or violinist couldn't sight-read very good, played with lots of unnecessary hand movements, played with impractical fingerings, they would not be considered virtuosi, even if what they were playing was considered difficult. And I certainly know this criteria to be true when referring to guitarists. I'm not really sure if Jason Becker fits all the criteria.

At least that's how I think virtuosi are measured today, and that's how I've seen it. Jason Becker could fit the criteria, but Rock and Metal musicians aren't too known for sight-reading abilities and practical perfect technique.
#16
Quote by The Madcap
Ah, I find myself a bit scared to say my opinion with Xiaoxi in this thread, but here it goes.
Why?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#17
Quote by Xiaoxi
Why?
Because out of all the users on this website, you're the one who has proven me wrong the most.
#18
Quote by NorfIrIon
Here's a nice little tip for you:
Saying "Fail" to everything does NOT make you cool.

Liar
I plays guitars.
#19
Quote by The Madcap
Because out of all the users on this website, you're the one who has proven me wrong the most.

Lol...I swear I've never had the intentions of proving you wrong.

Anyways, I can't prove if Jason Becker is a virtuoso or not. That's an opinion. I don't hold him as a virtuoso anyway. Even if I did, I don't care if he's not considered a virtuoso by other individuals.

Edit: But I will say that in general, I think you're adhering to the classical description of a virtuoso a bit much. Music genres vary widely in customs and culture, and I don't think a single guideline could be used to judge all music. You're right, rock isn't known for sight-reading musicians. But that's because rock music is an aural tradition that is almost completely non-rooted from the written traditions established by classical music. So is it really necessary to judge a rock musician with classical standards?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 24, 2008,
#20
Quote by NorfIrIon
Here's a nice little tip for you:
Saying "Fail" to everything does NOT make you cool.


'fail' is his "signature"...
#21
Quote by Xiaoxi
Lol...I swear I've never had the intentions of proving you wrong.

Anyways, I can't prove if Jason Becker is a virtuoso or not. That's an opinion. I don't hold him as a virtuoso anyway. Even if I did, I don't care if he's not considered a virtuoso by other individuals.



True. I don't feel like debating Jason's merits, so to Madcap, let us agree to disagree. I personally find Jason's playing phenomenal, but that's just my opinion.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
#22
Quote by Xiaoxi
Lol...I swear I've never had the intentions of proving you wrong.

Anyways, I can't prove if Jason Becker is a virtuoso or not. That's an opinion. I don't hold him as a virtuoso anyway. Even if I did, I don't care if he's not considered a virtuoso by other individuals.
I don't think you have the intentions, but you have proven me wrong on multiple ocassions.

For the record, I think virtuosity is just a bit overrated. I like virtuosi like Liszt, Alkan, etc. But my favorite music generally isn't music that shows off technical ability, like a lot of 20th century pianists write (Finissy, Sorabji, etc.). Debussy and Mozart were said to be great pianists, but it seems like both weren't to big on showing off how good they were. The same can't really be said for someone like Liszt or Sorabji.
#23
Quote by Xiaoxi
So is it really necessary to judge a rock musician with classical standards?
I guess I just consider classical criteria for the term "virtuoso". Because, technically speaking, I don't think the general Rock musician is at the technical ability of a Classical musician, so I don't like making the criteria easier for Rock music, and virtuosity is mainly referring to technique.

But like I said, I think virtuosity is overrated, and there are far more important things to worry about with regard to music.
#24
Quote by The Madcap
I don't think you have the intentions, but you have proven me wrong on multiple ocassions.

For the record, I think virtuosity is just a bit overrated. I like virtuosi like Liszt, Alkan, etc. But my favorite music generally isn't music that shows off technical ability, like a lot of 20th century pianists write (Finissy, Sorabji, etc.). Debussy and Mozart were said to be great pianists, but it seems like both weren't to big on showing off how good they were. The same can't really be said for someone like Liszt or Sorabji.

Virtuosity isn't limited to technical showcasing. Many classical virtuosos are considered virtuosos because they have the ability and musical feel to play almost any piece they want, be it a simple minuet or a 20th century concerto.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#25
Quote by The Madcap
I don't think the general Rock musician is at the technical ability of a Classical musician.

But you have to ask yourself: does a classical musician have the technical ability of a rock/metal musician?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#26
Quote by Xiaoxi
Virtuosity isn't limited to technical showcasing.
I suppose you're right, but I really only hear virtuosity applied to outstanding technical ability.
#27
Quote by Xiaoxi
But you have to ask yourself: does a classical musician have the technical ability of a rock/metal musician?
I don't know. For guitar, no. Because electric and steel-string guitars are too different from classical. I think a classical keyboardist could match what rock musicians play on keyboard, since they are built much more similar, if not identical.

Although, having used to be a Rock guitarist (mainly Classic Rock, but I never played Metal) for about 5 or 6 years, I think Classical is both more physically and mentally demanding.
#28
Quote by The Madcap
I suppose you're right, but I really only hear virtuosity applied to outstanding technical ability.

Virtuosos have the ability to play extremely difficult pieces, but they're more regarded for their overall mastery of the music. They play with a level of clarity, precision, expression, tonality and overall musical touch that is unmatched by most musicians. That's what virtuosos are revered for. I've never seen any virtuoso be recognized just by playing technical exercises. At the end of the day, people want to hear how good they are at playing music.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#29
I agree with both the madcap and Xiaoxi on this one, but for a different reason. I'm okay with calling someone a virtuoso even if they can't read music as long as they really bring something new to music. I'm embarrassed to say it, but today was the first time I've ever heard Jason Becker. And from what I've seen all he does is play fast. Nothing new. And I don't particularly like his songs.
The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason.-John Cage
#30
Quote by Xiaoxi
Virtuosos have the ability to play extremely difficult pieces, but they're more regarded for their overall mastery of the music. They play with a level of clarity, precision, expression, tonality and overall musical touch that is unmatched by most musicians. That's what virtuosos are revered for. I've never seen any virtuoso be recognized just by playing technical exercises. At the end of the day, people want to hear how good they are at playing music.
I agree. Just wondering; would you say a very high knowledge of music theory is necessary to be a virtuoso?
#31
Jack White has a lot of mediocre equipment, I saw a quote where he said its good to play like that because it forces you to be creative, and not rely on the instrument itself
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#32
Quote by Xiaoxi
But you have to ask yourself: does a classical musician have the technical ability of a rock/metal musician?

A good friend put it to me this way once:

"Phil Keaggy probably couldn't play Nile, and Nile probably couldn't play Phil Keaggy."

That has stuck with me, and it helps to highlight the differences in genres of music, not only in terms of difficulty, but in techniques used and styles employed. Metal and Classical music are hardly alike (sorry guys), despite when a guitarist plays some random Bach melody in a song, and comparing the two just can't be done because they are so different.
#33
Quote by StrokeMidnight
I agree with both the madcap and Xiaoxi on this one, but for a different reason. I'm okay with calling someone a virtuoso even if they can't read music as long as they really bring something new to music. I'm embarrassed to say it, but today was the first time I've ever heard Jason Becker. And from what I've seen all he does is play fast. Nothing new. And I don't particularly like his songs.



What songs did you hear?

Go listen to Speed Metal Symphony by Cacophony. I mean even if you don't like it, you have to be appreciate the musicianship inherent in it.

Also, Serrana, those in my opinion are some of the most memorable sweeps ever.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
#34
Quote by The Madcap
I agree. Just wondering; would you say a very high knowledge of music theory is necessary to be a virtuoso?


Even though this is not directed at me I think it really depends. If someone's music is lacking because they don't know theory, than yes you need to have a very high knowledge. If the person in questions music is fine without the knowledge of music theory then no.

It all depends on the person for basically everything.
The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason.-John Cage
#35
Quote by The Madcap
I don't know. For guitar, no. Because electric and steel-string guitars are too different from classical. I think a classical keyboardist could match what rock musicians play on keyboard, since they are built much more similar, if not identical.

Although, having used to be a Rock guitarist (mainly Classic Rock, but I never played Metal) for about 5 or 6 years, I think Classical is both more physically and mentally demanding.

What about proficient rock musicians' sense of rhythm and improvisation? What about their ability to play without relying on sheet music and work together as an ensemble without any written notice or directions? What about their grasp of the idiomatic language of rock music? As a classical musician, I know that without learning rock music, I couldn't have developed these skills.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#36
Quote by The Madcap
I agree. Just wondering; would you say a very high knowledge of music theory is necessary to be a virtuoso?


I would say no to this question. Mainly because if you have a good ear for music, then that is all you need. I'd rather have a great ear to be able to play the melodies in my head than to know what scale theoretically can be played over a C#diminished7flat5 with an added 13th chord.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
#37
Quote by StrokeMidnight
And from what I've seen all he does is play fast. Nothing new.


Yeah, but Jason Becker was one of the first to EVER play what we consider "shred" guitar, and he was doing it in his teenage years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he the one who got some disease when he was 21 or so, and left him immobile from the neck down?
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#38
Quote by Xiaoxi
What about proficient rock musicians' sense of rhythm and improvisation? What about their ability to play without relying on sheet music and work together as an ensemble without any written notice or directions? What about their grasp of the idiomatic language of rock music? As a classical musician, I know that without learning rock music, I couldn't have developed these skills.


Considering that a classical musician would have to rely on sheet music then maybe I wouldn't consider them a virtuoso. I think a virtuoso is someone who excels in at least one type of music, but is proficient in pretty much every other type of music. They should also be able to improvise well.
The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason.-John Cage
#39
Quote by The Madcap
I agree. Just wondering; would you say a very high knowledge of music theory is necessary to be a virtuoso?

I think almost all virtuosos have an elevated understanding of music theory. I can't help but imagine that it inherently goes with the whole package of being an outstanding musician. That is not to say that they all have the highest knowledge of theory, but they know enough to supplement their musicianship.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#40
Quote by scrambler_66
Yeah, but Jason Becker was one of the first to EVER play what we consider "shred" guitar, and he was doing it in his teenage years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he the one who got some disease when he was 21 or so, and left him immobile from the neck down?



Yeah, he got ALS when he was like twenty or twenty one. So sad, he was an amazing guitarist. Jason.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
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