#1
Hey guys. I don't want this thread to be controversial or a huge flamefest, I'm actually wondering this. What exactly is the defining line that makes some bands "Metalcore/hardcore" and other bands "true metal"? For example, what makesa band like Machine Head metal, while Shadows Fall is metalcore? Some of them are pretty obsious, since they incorporate hardcore elements like breakdowns in their songs, but then what about bands like Behemoth that also use breakdowns, but are considered true metal? Can someone please explain this to me?
Thanks.

PS: I posted this in the Hardcore forum, so hopefully, somewhere, I can get some clarification. Thanks everybody.
#3
did you post this twice?
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#5
Because breakdowns aren't what make some bands bad, it's the crappy riffs/annoying fans/pointless lyricism of certain bands (COUGHbfmvatreyukseCOUGH).

Classic thrash and certain death metal bands use breakdowns all the time.
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cuz ppl hate how power metal they are cuz they think its "gay" or w.e, which is immature and dirogitory
#6
Quote by JBizzle Da Truf
did you post this twice?

I posted it in the hardcore forum and the metal forum, so I could get opinions from fans of each.
#8
From what I've seen, there really is no defining line. Its more general opinion. Not that I agree with that, and not that it matters.

EDIT: lol @ atreyu burn, their lyrics are horrid

Quote by Slaytanic1993
Because breakdowns aren't what make some bands bad, it's the crappy riffs/annoying fans/pointless lyricism of certain bands (COUGHbfmvatreyukseCOUGH).

Classic thrash and certain death metal bands use breakdowns all the time.
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#9
i'd rather just call good music, good music, i try not to genre'ize bands like that. i personaly love both macine head and shadows fall. its just oppinion most of the time i guess.
#10
Quote by MustangMan311
Go listen to Suffocation and then go listen to Gorilla Biscuits.

Its not that I don't understand that there is a difference, I just don't see exactly where the defining line is.
#11
Sorry, never heard about anything mentionned. I usually refer to music as good or bad.
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#12
i don't think there is a differance anymore. i think the artist just puts whatever sounds better ex were metal or were hardcore. i just depends on what they want to be callled really.
#13
In some cases it isn't as obvious, i've heard even heard Shadows Fall classified as power metal. metal heads just add "Core" on the end of music they don't like.
#14
its all opinion really. because theres a shitton of subgenres in metal especially, they all get crossed and confused. I always classify into 2 genres "good/real" metal and "other shit". pretty much anything with a -core in it is in the other shit category. I mean its all up to opinion really because what I consider hardcore someone else will consider metal. I would say all the -core bands are still considered a kind of metal however there not considered "real" metal to me. when I think real metal i think traditional, thrash, speed, death, black, doom, or sludge. but like I said its all up to opinion
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#15
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And uh no real reason metalheads are just retarded and like to categorize too much



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#16
Are we talking about like Metalcore vs Metal, or actual hardcore bands?
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#17
Quote by MustangMan311
Go listen to Suffocation and then go listen to Gorilla Biscuits.

Suffocation use a ****load of breakdowns dummy.
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#18
Quote by Slaytanic1993
Because breakdowns aren't what make some bands bad, it's the crappy riffs/annoying fans/pointless lyricism of certain bands (COUGHbfmvatreyukseCOUGH).

Classic thrash and certain death metal bands use breakdowns all the time.


I think Atreyu is actually what made me hate metalcore.

Metalcore is like melodeath that sounds less death metal and less folk music ish. Or melodic hardcore with more metal guitars. Also, it's usually the vocals, metalcore has a lot of whiny-sounding vocals if they take influence from more recent hardcore bands.
#19
Metalcore bands generally incorporate the following elements:

-Melodeath riffs (or, in some cases, groove/thrash riffs)
-Chuggy start-stop floor-punch breakdowns
-Screams (as opposed to growls) and occasionally emo-ish singing

When a metal band does a breakdown, it's done a bit differently. Compare the breakdown in Nile's Sacrifice to Sebek or Slayer's Angel of Death to the breakdown in Unearth's Endless or Lamb of God's Break You to see what I mean.
#20
Suffocation use a ****load of breakdowns dummy.[/QUOTE
I think that was the point of what he was saying.
#21
I think image and the perception of fans has a lot to do with it. A lot of the bigger metalcore bands (Shadows Fall, Killswitch, Unearth) started as metal bands playing in the hardcore scenes. Remember, "metal" wasnt really supproted in the mid to late 90s so these bands played shows were they could.

Some bands market themselves more as hardcore bands, by the way they dress, the bands they play with, the **** their press releases say. And then fans have their own perceptions as well, eg Black Dahlia Murder - everyone assumes these guys are metalcore cos of their hair/piercings and the way they dress, they're definately melodic death metal though.

At the end of the day, does it really matter though? So what if a band had -core at the end or death- or black- in front of it. If they play music that you dig, who gives a **** what anyone else thinks?
#22
I think the way it works is the certain distinct sounds. There's a big difference between metalcore/hardcore growls and death metal growls. There's certain signature guitar tones. There's different drum beats and how they're applied. Lyrical theme's are really subjective, but it's been a while since I heard a death metal song about how a breakup broke your heart. Just sayin'. A lot of metalcore guitar riffs are just galloping (No, not triplets. *facepalm*) on the Drop C (another trait of metalcore) while hitting a couple individual notes between each gallop on the octave higher string (in Drop C that's the 4th string) to create a sort of melody to accompany the "rhythm" (the gallops, if you didn't pick that up already).

Once you listen to enough of it all, it's really easy to pick out the differences and classification just becomes natural.
#23
What most metal heads don't understand is that a breakdown ISN'T THE ONLY hardcore element in music. Metalcore usually contains the the same themes as hardcore ("get out of mah face!") and same chord progressions (generally)

The riffs are chuggier, and breakdowns are common.

Same with deathcore. When you listen to it, it isn't just death metal with breakdowns. Techniques that are common in hardcore are also involved in deathcore, not just death metal with breakdowns.
#24
Yeah, I can't really give a defining line to you, it just comes with experience I suppose. I've been listening to metal for almost four years now, and you just come to be able to distinguish between metal and core bands, the way you can tell a black metal band from a death metal band.
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#25
Quote by Avedas
I think the way it works is the certain distinct sounds. There's a big difference between metalcore/hardcore growls and death metal growls. There's certain signature guitar tones. There's different drum beats and how they're applied. Lyrical theme's are really subjective, but it's been a while since I heard a death metal song about how a breakup broke your heart. Just sayin'. A lot of metalcore guitar riffs are just galloping (No, not triplets. *facepalm*) on the Drop C (another trait of metalcore) while hitting a couple individual notes between each gallop on the octave higher string (in Drop C that's the 4th string) to create a sort of melody to accompany the "rhythm" (the gallops, if you didn't pick that up already).

Once you listen to enough of it all, it's really easy to pick out the differences and classification just becomes natural.


Im not trying to pick a fight or anything, but that gallop rhythm you are talking about is actually from melodic death metal/thrash. Core bands use it heaps, but Slayer used it alot and At The Gates stole it from them. And both of those bands adapted it from Maiden and sped it up.

Drop tuning is pretty standard in metal these days too, and has been around since the late 80s. Death/black metal bands down tune heaps, so do doom bands.

And dude, most metalcore isnt about how heartbroken you are after a breakup. Shadows Fall dont have a song about it, neither do Unearth. Most metalcore bands use "hardcore" lyric themes - empowering lyrics, standing up for yourself, problems with the world, all that ****.
#26
This thread reeks of fail.

Metalcore is the combination of metal (often Scandanavian style melodeath) and hardcore.
It involves ripping off as many At The Gates, Carcass (even though they are English) and In Flames riffs as you can adding breakdowns and more "throaty" yells instead of screams. Drop tunings are a near nessecity (as in DROP C, DROP B, etc, not just down tuned)
And you pretty much won't find a metalcore band before about the year 2000.

Deathcore is similar, just subsitute the yells for proper growls and occassionally substitute the melodeath rip offs with Cannibal Corpse rip offs.

Wanna disagree?
Go to wikipedia and look up the various genres.

~J.M.L., Core Elitist~
#27
Let's boycott this thread and use it for our war


Metal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Core
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#29
Quote by Magero
This thread reeks of fail.

Metalcore is the combination of metal (often Scandanavian style melodeath) and hardcore.
It involves ripping off as many At The Gates, Carcass (even though they are English) and In Flames riffs as you can adding breakdowns and more "throaty" yells instead of screams. Drop tunings are a near nessecity (as in DROP C, DROP B, etc, not just down tuned)
And you pretty much won't find a metalcore band before about the year 2000.

Deathcore is similar, just subsitute the yells for proper growls and occassionally substitute the melodeath rip offs with Cannibal Corpse rip offs.

Wanna disagree?
Go to wikipedia and look up the various genres.

~J.M.L., Core Elitist~


I would agree with you if you were solely talking about modern metalcore. Earlier metalcore, however, did not really consist of melodeath rip-off bands. It was actually a genuine fusion of metal and hardcore. But then again, that was earlier bands. Many metalcore bands today do indeed sound like watered down melo-death bands.

PS: Prayer For Cleansing, Botch, Shai Hulud, Caliban all formed and played before 2000.
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#30
Quote by tomohawkjoe
I would agree with you if you were solely talking about modern metalcore. Earlier metalcore, however, did not really consist of melodeath rip-off bands. It was actually a genuine fusion of metal and hardcore. But then again, that was earlier bands. Many metalcore bands today do indeed sound like watered down melo-death bands.

PS: Prayer For Cleansing, Botch, Shai Hulud, Caliban all formed and played before 2000.

Imagine I inserted the words "the modern incarnations of..." before metalcore then
Because that's what I was refering to.
#31
thought you were UGs core elitist hahahahaha

IC is not going to be happy with your treason
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

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#32
Quote by to_the_grave
Im not trying to pick a fight or anything, but that gallop rhythm you are talking about is actually from melodic death metal/thrash. Core bands use it heaps, but Slayer used it alot and At The Gates stole it from them. And both of those bands adapted it from Maiden and sped it up.

Drop tuning is pretty standard in metal these days too, and has been around since the late 80s. Death/black metal bands down tune heaps, so do doom bands.

And dude, most metalcore isnt about how heartbroken you are after a breakup. Shadows Fall dont have a song about it, neither do Unearth. Most metalcore bands use "hardcore" lyric themes - empowering lyrics, standing up for yourself, problems with the world, all that ****.


To all your points: I know that. I was just saying that's pretty much always used in Metalcore. Very little differentials. The thing about the lyrics was more saying how it's not very metal, rather than how metalcore uses it so much.
#33
Quote by MHDrunk
thought you were UGs core elitist hahahahaha

IC is not going to be happy with your treason

Ah, but you said "metal" not "underproduced 80's old school fuzz death metal crap"
#34
thats it im coming to queensland
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