#1
just had my music tech exam this morning, and have to analyse first six chords of a piano piece - in this case "The Sick Doll" by Tchaikovsky.
However, the fourth chord in consists of C, D and A. The second chord was D F# A and C - a standard D7.
So when describing this fourth chord, is the best way to think of it as a D7(no 3rd)?
Or some kind of triad?
I'm afraid my theory knowledge doesn't stretch to these lengths!!!
Its times like these you learn to live again. If you even knew in the first place.
#2
What key is the piece in? What came before and what comes afterward? Possibilities include: D7(no 3) like you said or an implied Bbmaj9(though I doubt it) or something that I can't think of. It's hard to figure out if I don't know the context.
#3
Quote by titopuente
What key is the piece in? What came before and what comes afterward? Possibilities include: D7(no 3) like you said or an implied Bbmaj9(though I doubt it) or something that I can't think of. It's hard to figure out if I don't know the context.


Ah-ha! i have this all to hand luckily, since the exam consist of those questions.
The piece is in G minor, the first six chords are just tonic and dominant alternating::
1). I
2). V7b
3). Ib
4). V7b (no3rd!?)
5). I
6). V7b
These are in broken chord form. Typical romantic piano piece, sonorous with lots of pedal. Only other interesting thing about tonality is the occasional C# and E natural, but they dont come til later in the piece.

Hope this gives you enough context!
Any help is much appreciated - its becoming quite a bugbear.
Its times like these you learn to live again. If you even knew in the first place.
#4
Generally if you remove the 3rd , it's a SUS chord

but can't you also just said it's C/D5
Last edited by Ordinary at May 2, 2008,
#5
I don't know where i am with this thread... but as far as removing the 3rd goes, it only becomes a SUS chord when the 3rd is replaced with the 2nd/4th.

In this case if the 4th was played, the chord would be a 7sus4. the fact that the 4th wasn't played renders this fairly useless...
#6
It's a pretty sounding chord thou

you mean can't said it c6sus2.
Last edited by Ordinary at May 2, 2008,
#7
Quote by Ordinary
but can't you also just said it's C/D5

Just to clear up the conventional notation here, it would be D5/C. C/D5 implies a polychord that would be built D A C E G.
#9
okay...what chord is it then smiley ?

yeah without knowing what the root is

I can make a sort of Amin11
Last edited by Ordinary at May 2, 2008,
#10
Either way, the bass note is an A so that doesn't make sense.

I'm a bit baffled as to what to call the chord. I guess I'll settle for V7 (no 3), but I don't really like that...

Also, this leads to a deep subject: if a chord is in second inversion, but does not contain the third, is it really in second inversion......?
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#11
Quote by Ordinary
okay...what chord is it then smiley ?

If it's built C D A, in the key of G minor you'd likely see it functioning as a D chord, the fifth chord. That would make sense with the constant I-V motion of the progression he gave. Therefore, I'd likely just call it a D5 slash chord depending on what the bass note is.
#12
You mean so that it's fifth root third, with no third? To me if you still wanted to apply a major or minor quality to it, it'd be second inversion, but it could just as easily be a 5th "chord" in first inversion. I guess.

Anyways, if psychodelia is a bit baffled as to what to call the chord, I don't know either. Since the bass note is an A, it strikes me as some sort of iidim chord, but I don't really know...
#13
Dose Amin11 work ?

if the D is the root , just call it a D7.
I guess if the C note wants to be stress.
You don't always have to play all of the notes in a chord.
Last edited by Ordinary at May 2, 2008,
#15
Amadd11 would work, but seems a bit extraneous to me. I'm rather tempted to call it an Adim, depending on how it's presented(all at once, or if the D serves a melodic purpose rather than a harmonic one, etc.)
#16
Quote by grampastumpy
Amadd11 would work, but seems a bit extraneous to me. I'm rather tempted to call it an Adim, depending on how it's presented(all at once, or if the D serves a melodic purpose rather than a harmonic one, etc.)

Yes, I was just doing that for a nomenclature purpose. It would be odd to name it based off the A because it would normally serve as the iidim chord; that's why I originally based it off of the D in the context of that progression.
#18
Quote by :-D
Yes, I was just doing that for a nomenclature purpose. It would be odd to name it based off the A because it would normally serve as the iidim chord; that's why I originally based it off of the D in the context of that progression.
Oh yeah, I meant to Ordinary.

IMO, a iidim - i isn't that out there, and with A as the bass note, I'd consider it, though D somewhat makes more sense. I still have no clue without the sheet music though.
#19
Quote by branny1982
the piece is in g minor, so it could imply Am11, which would have a b5 if played diatonically.

For it to be "m11" you'd need the seventh and the ninth as well.
#20
Quote by :-D
For it to be "m11" you'd need the seventh and the ninth as well.

no you wouldn't.

you can phrase chords within a progression without playing every note.

in fact to rephrase that... i think you would rarely play every note.

you dont HAVE to do anything.
#21
Okay, just listened to the beginning of it. The bass seems to go G A Bb A G A Bb A with the chords, which seems to be more of a countrapuntal/melodic thing than a harmonic thing. Thus, D7(no third) seems to be up there, maybe even a D5(with or without an addm7).
#22
Quote by branny1982
no you wouldn't.

you can phrase chords within a progression without playing every note.

in fact to rephrase that... i think you would rarely play every note.

you dont HAVE to do anything.

Yes, but that's jazz convention; I tend to use strict classical rules in terms of chord nomenclature.
#24
It's been a while since I've taken a look at this topic. I hate to say it, but CrimsonMoon answered his own question in his second post. He recognized that the beginning of the piece was a string of 'Tonic-Dominant's. Playing the chords of this piece, the 4th chord in the sequence sounds like it has a dominant function, which is why I would consider it as having a root of D, even with the A in bass. Recognizing that it has a dominant function is pretty much as far as you should reasonably have to go in analysis. Anything more is just pedantic.
#25
Am11 MUST contain the third, seventh, and 11th. The fifth and the 9th are not necessary and may be included at your discretion. However, leaving out the 3rd, 7th, or 11th will change the name of the chord.
#26
It's a D7. Once the function is established, the third can be removed for contrapuntal reasons because it's aurally expected.
Quote by les_kris
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#28
Find attached a copy of said piece "The Sick Doll" by Tchaikovsky.
Hope this can lead to a definitive answer - as just like psychodeila:

"I guess I'll settle for V7 (no 3), but I don't really like that..."
Attachments:
piano pieces 002.jpg
Its times like these you learn to live again. If you even knew in the first place.
#29
Yeah, you definitely want to look at the counterpoint there more than anything else... if I were going to name that I'd go with V7. You don't have to specify "no 3rd" there, it's not some special feature of the chord. It's just the tone that was left out because there's nowhere reasonable to put it -- it's leading back to a repetition of the phrase (notice mm.s 5-8 are a repetition of 1 - 4), and the "marcato il basso" indicates the bass is taking the melody. There's two or three different ways to see this, and the simplest is as V7 (or v7)... and I'm willing to venture there's a modulation that follows shortly based on this effect.

It's a lot more important to just see how the voices are acting, than what the harmony is. The harmony is ambiguous in a lot of ways (notice both the unresolved 7th and unresolved leading tone, in an outer voice even, in mm2), which is pretty normal for Tchaikovsky and other romantic composers.
Quote by les_kris
Corwinoid is God
I'm not even God-like... I've officially usurped the Almighty's throne.
Click here to worship me.

Member #3 of the Corwinoid Fan Club
#30
Thanks very much for everyone's response - i only wish i'd asked before my exam so i could've included some of this gold
Its times like these you learn to live again. If you even knew in the first place.