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#1
Before I begin, I know that all of you will reply and say that i'm making outrageous claims and that I don't know what I am talking about.

First - A little about me and my musical backround. I'm 37 years old and have been playing guitar since I was 7. I have taken guitar lessons from a music conservatory and a couple of well respected guitarists in the area I grew up. I play several styles of music mainly rock, blues, country, and jazz. When I played in jazz band we played from written music exclusively, and every new song we played was sight read. Besides guitar playing I sang since I was very young as well. During junior high and high school I sang in the school choirs, again involving reading music. Along with that I sang in church choir during my high school years as well. I even played violin for a year, i think in the 5th grade. After I left high school I joined the Air Force so it's hard to keep a band together to do anything very serious, but I still play and sing all the time. My dad played sax when he was young, but has played bass guitar since he was about 14. He has and plays in bands that are big in the upper midwest (Wis, Mich., Ill). His good friend and past bandmate is Bryan Lee a blues guitarist that is now based in New Orleans. One of my cousins graduated from Berkley with a degree in vocal studies. She sings some backup for Susan Tedeshi and was with her when she was on Leno about 2 yrs ago. I have another cousin that teaches music for a living, but I don't keep up with him at all. I have some good friends in Texas that are hot in the Red Dirt music scene. Does all this make me an expert on music? Definately NOT, BUT I do know a lot about music (playing it, writing it, song construction, etc.). Would any of you heard of me? Probably not, like I said I am in the military and don't have the most stable life, but my love of music is unwavered!!

On sunday there were several thread about time signatures. After rereading several of my music books and confering with a friend that has taken college level music theory and runs a music studio, I am still CORRECT!!! Whether it is simple or compound time the time signature still means the same thing. The top number is the number of beats per measure and the bottom number is the unit or which note is worth one beat PERIOD!!!! The reason for this is for continuity when people try to read music. Also, eighth notes in compound time are NOT called triplets, they may have that feel, but by definition are not. A triplet is: playing 3 notes in the duritional space of two notes, whether it's 3 eighths in the space of a quater, 3 quarters in the space of a half note, etc., and it is annotated with a tie across the 3 notes and a three written above it. In compound time you cannot consider the groups of 3 eighths to be a triplet since each eighth is taking the space of one eighth. Even if you incorrectly call the dotted quarter the note that gets one beat its value is that of 3!!! eighth note so you are NOT adding an extra eighth. Regardless of time signature you cannot change what each note value is worth and how they subdivide. By calling the eighths in compound time triplets you are changing the dotted quarter to the value of a quarter note which CANNOT BE DONE!

You all can slam me all you want, BUT if you want to know the truth about music you will listen to me when I post, since I don't post very often and only post to ensure that incorrect info is corrected. It's a free country and none of you have to believe a word I say. To that I respond that I will just sit back and laugh out loud at those that wish to swim in a sea of mediocrity and misinformation!!!!


Thank you
#2
I thought that was common knowledge? Maybe it's just because I've been playing a classical instrument as well for almost 7 years, but I've known that for ages...

EDIT: and I haven't read all the time signature threads so I don't know what the argument is about, but what you're saying seems pretty obvious to me...
#3
you just took all that time so you could feel good about yourself in being correct on an internet forum....WOW does your ego feel better now?
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#4
you had to talk to a friend about that???

i thought everybody knew that
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#5
yeah, I think we all knew that. if someone didnt know that they are either not musicians or have just barely started...
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#6
Quote by IRONMAIDENTLICA
you just took all that time so you could feel good about yourself in being correct on an internet forum....WOW does your ego feel better now?


does yours?
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#7
Quote by zoomy74
It's a free country

Yeah, where you are living it's free. UG is located in Russia... RUSSIA!!!

But about the time sigs, it makes sense. There should be no arguing when it's plain and simple.
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remember UG Community? thought so.
#8
Why do you say it in such a patronizing way? If you think your right about something then post your ideas in the thread. If people choose to accept them then thats good, you've helped them out, but don't write some f*** off huge essay on your life. Even after all that expierance then all you did was read a book and consult a friend...

Excuse me while i go write a 1000 word essay on "My life and why im always right"..... nazi
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#9
Who ever disputed the top number is the beats per measure and the bottom is the beat worth clearly cannot be trusted and should be strapped to a stake and beaten to death with the weapon being Nicole Ritchie
Out here you've gotta know where your towel is!
#10
Quote by ValoRhoads
Who ever disputed the top number is the beats per measure and the bottom is the beat worth clearly cannot be trusted and should be strapped to a stake and beaten to death with the weapon being Nicole Ritchie


Time signatures are not fractions. Compound time is interpreted differently.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#11
I know I sounded high and mighty, but there were 3 thread on sunday one about counting in 6/8 time, and two others I cannot remember the titles of that I posted what should be common knowledge about time signatures and Bangoodcharlote slammed me in each tread to go so far as to say she was right and I was wrong and that she was going to ensure to inform everyone that I had no idea what I was talking about as far a compound time goes.

Sorry for the long rant, but it really frustrated me.
#13
Quote by zoomy74
Bangoodcharlote slammed me in each tread to go so far as to say she was right and I was wrong and that she was going to ensure to inform everyone that I had no idea what I was talking about



welcome to UG
#15
you should have posted that (albeit possibly a shorter version) in the threads you were talking about so you could be saying it directly to the people who were wrong, not to a bunch of people that agree with you.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that most people here disagree with you and "wish to swim in a sea of mediocrity and misinformation!!!!".

Also, if you're that great a musician why did you need to consult a book and your friend?
#16
I didn't need to consult a friend just wanted to after being told I was wrong several times. I also do nto think everyone here is or wants to be wrong, just felt like it the oter day. There were a few that tried to support what I was saying. I also did try and express myself clearly the other day, to no avail.
#18
The top number is the number of beats per measure

In compound time, this is divided by 3.
Call me Batman.
#19
To Branny1982- we have a winner! Anyway, thanks for letting me rant. I really try not to let things like this bother me, but I knew what I was saying was correct and had to get it off my chest.
#20
Quote by ValoRhoads
Who ever disputed the top number is the beats per measure and the bottom is the beat worth clearly cannot be trusted and should be strapped to a stake and beaten to death with the weapon being Nicole Ritchie


I'm about 100% sure, that this guy and his friend are wrong...

when dealing with compound time the top number designates PULSE, not beat.

so in 6 8 there is 6 pulses per measure, but only 2 beats, on the 1st and 4th pulse...

he may have a long background in music theory, but on this one, im positive he is wrong
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#22
Quote by `NeXxuS`
I'm about 100% sure, that this guy and his friend are wrong...

when dealing with compound time the top number designates PULSE, not beat.

so in 6 8 there is 6 pulses per measure, but only 2 beats, on the 1st and 4th pulse...

he may have a long background in music theory, but on this one, im positive he is wrong

That is exactly it.
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#23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_(music)

I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. I have several books on music and like I said I confered with my friend since I had not taken any college leve classes on the subject. Now if we are going to use wikepedia as the true source of musical knowledge, the posted links for beat and pulse each say basically that one is the same as the other. Now if I am totally missing something, please enlighten me.
#24
Quote by `NeXxuS`
I'm about 100% sure, that this guy and his friend are wrong...

when dealing with compound time the top number designates PULSE, not beat.

so in 6 8 there is 6 pulses per measure, but only 2 beats, on the 1st and 4th pulse...

he may have a long background in music theory, but on this one, im positive he is wrong


Amusingly enough, I think that is the exact opposite of the terms that Corwinoid used in an earlier thread

I'll let the thread stay, but in the future, zoomy, you can just voice your disagreement in the original thread, instead of making an entirely new thread. We can't just go around making a new thread every time there's an argument around here

Somebody made the point, (and I'm paraphrasing) "If you're such a good musician, why did you have to check your facts?" It never hurts to double-check statements that you make, and it'll make you less likely to come off as an idiot sometimes.

All in all, I think both sides of the argument are getting a bit too riled up over this. In normal 6/8, zoomy can play 6 8th notes per measure, accenting 1 and 4, and bgc can play two dotted-quarters subdivided to have three 8ths per beat. I don't think that one or the other is at a disadvantage, but you can tell me I'm wrong if you like.


p.s. zoomy, if we're taking wikipedia as the source of knowledge, it states that 6/8 can be a duple compound meter with 2 beats the length of a dotted quarter. I'm just sayin'
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#25
Quote by zoomy74
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_(music)

I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. I have several books on music and like I said I confered with my friend since I had not taken any college leve classes on the subject. Now if we are going to use wikepedia as the true source of musical knowledge, the posted links for beat and pulse each say basically that one is the same as the other. Now if I am totally missing something, please enlighten me.


no they dont

* Simple duple – two beats to a bar, each divided by two, the top number being "2" (2/4, 2/8, 2/2 &hellip
* Simple triple (3/4 (help·info)) – three beats to a bar, each divided by two, the top number being "3" (3/4, 3/8. 3/2 &hellip
* Compound duple - two beats to a bar, each divided by three, the top number being "6" (6/8, 6/16, 6/4 &hellip
* Compound triple - three beats to a bar, each divided by three, the top number being "9" (9/8, 9/16, 9/4)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_%28music%29

read and learn
#26
Part of what I am trying to say is that no matter what you call them beats, pulses, chairs (ha, ha); in compound there are 6,9,12 eighth values per measure. You can call it 2,3,4 beats with 6,9,12 pulses I don't care, but b/c what you are calling a beat is a DOTTED quarter it is the same durational space as 3 eight notes. This is what I tried to say in the other posts, but some kept calling them triplet which is incorrect. No matter what the time signature,key, coumpound, simple whatever; the values of notes does not change. 4-16th=2-8ths; 2-8ths=1-1/4; 6-1/16ths=3-8ths; 3-8ths=1-dotted 1/4.
#27
Part of what I am trying to say is that no matter what you call them beats, pulses, chairs (ha, ha); in compound there are 6,9,12 eighth values per measure.


So what? There are eight eighth note values in 4/4 time, it doesn't mean that 4/4 time has eight beats.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#28
The reason I point this out is b/c the other day bangoodcharlote said that compound time takes simple meter and assigns triplets to a beat rather that 2 8th notes. This thinking is incorrect, they are not triplets. They have a triplet feel but are not triplets. The 8ths have the same durational value as a dotted 1/4.
#29
Quote by zoomy74
Bangoodcharlote slammed me in each tread to go so far as to say she was right and I was wrong


There's your first mistake.
Don't worry about what Bangoodcharlotte has to say, because it's usually something asinine.
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#30
Quote by psychodelia
Amusingly enough, I think that is the exact opposite of the terms that Corwinoid used in an earlier thread
That wouldn't surprise me

Ninja edit: Actually they're pretty much exactly what I was saying, in the same thread that was referenced, just a lot more technical.
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Last edited by Corwinoid at May 6, 2008,
#31
Thx Sleaze Disease.

On another note, the reason I keep on about which note gets the beat is if something is in 5/8 time which is def. not simple time the 8th note would get the beat, since you can't break it into a group of three or two.
#32
Quote by AngerIsAGift06
does yours?


MY EGO IS NEVER SATISFIED!
"I just want to conquer people and their souls."
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#33
FWIW, it looks really ****ing childish for you to have made an "I'm right, everybody listen to me" thread. Also, google "appeal to authority" or other logic errors. Because... lol.

I really hate making arguments based on my experience -- and my experience is definitely better than "has a friend who has a degree, and runs a music studio." Also, just because you're old doesn't make you right. And this thread just makes you look like a little kid begging for acceptance.

If anybody wants to know the truth about something, they can apply some critical evaluation to any comment anybody makes, and do research themselves to confirm or deny its accuracy.
Quote by les_kris
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Click here to worship me.

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#34
Tbh I've been a bit dissapointed by original post, I was expecting some kind of revealing truth behind music so that suddenly everything would make sense, instead it was blah...
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#35
Quote by Peanut1614
Tbh I've been a bit dissapointed by original post, I was expecting some kind of revealing truth behind music so that suddenly everything would make sense, instead it was blah...

zoomy74
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008

Welp.
Quote by les_kris
Corwinoid is God
I'm not even God-like... I've officially usurped the Almighty's throne.
Click here to worship me.

Member #3 of the Corwinoid Fan Club
#36
Quote by Corwinoid
Welp.


Lmao, those young upstarts eh...
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#37
On another note, the reason I keep on about which note gets the beat is if something is in 5/8 time which is def. not simple time the 8th note would get the beat, since you can't break it into a group of three or two.
I break it into a group of three AND a group of two
Either
123 12
or
12 123
I guess you could call each number a beat, and the 1's are the pulses. Doesn't worry me.

Also, to speak for BGC, I don't think she means that you are actually playing triplets with the little three above them and everything. Just that the 8ths are grouped in threes and there are four groups so it feels like triplets in 4/4.
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#38
Quote by zoomy74
You all can slam me all you want, BUT if you want to know the truth about music you will listen to me when I post, since I don't post very often and only post to ensure that incorrect info is corrected. It's a free country and none of you have to believe a word I say. To that I respond that I will just sit back and laugh out loud at those that wish to swim in a sea of mediocrity and misinformation!!!!

Well, at least you didn't make yourself look like an arrogant prick.
#39
Oh **** son... teh smiley face is callin you out. You gonna put up with dat shiz?
Quote by les_kris
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Click here to worship me.

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