#1
my mom showed me this, i felt like sharing it. i see political threads all the time, but if this belongs in THE political thread for some reason, i'll delete it. i just thought it was interesting.

A chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back, and stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, 'Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'

The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke. 'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming.

When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to
come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America The government keeps pushing us toward socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. While we continually lose our freedoms - just a little at a time.

One should always remember: There is no such thing as a free lunch! Also, a politician will never provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends. If you think the free ride is essential to your way of life then you will probably delete this email, but God help you when the gate slams shut!

In this 'very important' election year, listen closely to what the
candidates are promising you -

Just maybe you will be able to tell who is about to slam the gate on America.

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.' - Thomas Jefferson



the incomplete sentence at the beginning pisses me off.
#3
Yeah, it's really annoying when someone screws with grammar like that.

Sometimes I see errors in magazines and want to strangle someone.
#5
Quote by freedoms_stain
As long as you have a vote you're free, socialism or no.


er yeah....like in zimbabwe?
Quote by Shred Head
You have an atrocious sense of humour!

Quote by StrayCatBlues
You win 100 hilarity points.

Spend them wisely.


Quote by GrisKy
you're a funny, funny man, chimp in a tux... funny indeed.
#9
Quote by freedoms_stain
Mugabe was corrupt from the beginning.

the point i was making is: they have the vote there...but would you call the blatant attempts at manipulating the results, as well as the intimidation and violence freedom?
Quote by Shred Head
You have an atrocious sense of humour!

Quote by StrayCatBlues
You win 100 hilarity points.

Spend them wisely.


Quote by GrisKy
you're a funny, funny man, chimp in a tux... funny indeed.
#10
Quote by freedoms_stain
As long as you have a vote you're free, socialism or no.


False


I love this thread. Good job TS.
#11
Quote by chimpinatux
er yeah....like in zimbabwe?


Lol at the suggestion that there is free voting in Zimbabwe.
#12
Quote by chimpinatux
the point i was making is: they have the vote there...but would you call the blatant attempts at manipulating the results, as well as the intimidation and violence freedom?
Its a sham democracy.
#13
Quote by Vagabond21
False


I love this thread. Good job TS.
Only false if 50-60% of the population fails to use it.
#14
Quote by freedoms_stain
Its a sham democracy.

could be pointed at ANY deomocracy in the world
Quote by Shred Head
You have an atrocious sense of humour!

Quote by StrayCatBlues
You win 100 hilarity points.

Spend them wisely.


Quote by GrisKy
you're a funny, funny man, chimp in a tux... funny indeed.
#15
Meh... Not a very well developed argument, and quite a leap of logic that government programs are unequivocally bad. Chain-letter drivel.

Also important to remember that in many of the more notable communist revolutions: Cuba and Vietnam for example, the communists were fighting against an authoritarian government that apart from ties to the USSR was no better in terms of freedoms, civil rights, or humanitarian issues.

It's easy to connect communism to evil in a black and white sense, but the lack thereof does not make a country free. And the difference between Communism and Social Democracy is as clear as night and day.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#16
Quote by freedoms_stain
As long as you have a vote you're free, socialism or no.

In my humble opinion, that statement is the height of ignorance. I know what compells you to proffer that statement, and I can follow your logic, but with a short discourse and an open mind I believe you would see the error of your ways and the flaw in your logic. No offense intended of course, cheers mate.

I think that story was rather class.
Quote by Twist of fate
cool. Ever get head from a stuffed animal?

Quote by casualty01
Say hello to your new warden, bitches!
Quote by Masamune
I love you
#17
Just because you're able to vote doesn't mean you have freedom.

How would it be freedom if an election was rigged?

How would it be freedom if people were forced to vote with violence to vote one way or the other?

But I guess ignorance is bliss, right?
#18
Quote by chimpinatux
could be pointed at ANY deomocracy in the world
Not really.

Is the same person in power year after year? No. What does that mean? Power has changed hands. Why? People voted for someone else.
#19
Quote by Vagabond21
False


I love this thread. Good job TS.


In a working democracy, true. The level of democracy in a country isn't the same as its economic system. Russia is in many ways a capitalist country, but its democracy doesn't function well.

Quote by Vagabond21
Just because you're able to vote doesn't mean you have freedom.

How would it be freedom if an election was rigged?

How would it be freedom if people were forced to vote with violence to vote one way or the other?


What does that have to do with social programs?
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#20
Quote by chimpinatux
could be pointed at ANY deomocracy in the world


No, most democracies don't have the outcome of voting laughed at by most of the civilized world. They actually have fairness and legitimacy.
#21
Quote by Vagabond21
False

Either elaborate or don't talk at all.

The analogy used in the op seems incorrect, the loss of one's entire freedom is prohibited through the constitutions in any given democratic country. I think we learned something out of the disaster that was the USSR.
#22
Quote by Vagabond21
Just because you're able to vote doesn't mean you have freedom.

How would it be freedom if an election was rigged?

How would it be freedom if people were forced to vote with violence to vote one way or the other?
In neither of those cases would it be free democracy, and in a free westernised democracy election rigging is near impossible.

However if you live in the united states and let electoral colleges do the job for you there's a decent chance the person who gets in power won't be the person with the most votes.

If an election is rigged then it means someone you elected into power rigged it. Someone was a bad judge of character.
#23
Quote by freedoms_stain
In neither of those cases would it be free democracy, and in a free westernised democracy election rigging is near impossible.

However if you live in the united states and let electoral colleges do the job for you there's a decent chance the person who gets in power won't be the person with the most votes.

If an election is rigged then it means someone you elected into power rigged it. Someone was a bad judge of character.


Thank you. The first sentence is all I needed to read. Have a good day everyone.

edit: the first half of the sentence
#24
Quote by TheQuailman
Either elaborate or don't talk at all.

The analogy used in the op seems incorrect, the loss of one's entire freedom is prohibited through the constitutions in any given democratic country. I think we learned something out of the disaster that was the USSR.


Read the post I posted before yours, or don't talk at all.

I didn't know you made the rules. Please enlighten me on a few more.
#25
Quote by Vagabond21
Read the post I posted before yours, or don't talk at all.

I didn't know you made the rules. Please enlighten me on a few more.

Sheesh, I was a tad late.

Nothing personal, dude. It just always gets on my tits when people just type 'WRONG' without explanation. That's not contributing to the thread at all.

Whatevs, seems like you discussed everything there was to discuss with freedoms_stain already, so I can only say:

Have a nice evening.
#26
Quote by Vagabond21
Thank you. The first sentence is all I needed to read. Have a good day everyone.

edit: the first half of the sentence
Choosing to ignore the part which explains how you're wrong.

Not very good at this debate thing are we?

You completely misinterpreted the comment. The point was (that you missed)

Quote by freedoms_stain
in a free westernised democracy election rigging is near impossible.

If an election is rigged then it means someone you elected into power rigged it. Someone was a bad judge of character.
If you voted for an election rigger it's your own fault.

Only people IN POWER can rig an election, and to get there they have to be elected. By you.
#27
Quote by TheQuailman
Sheesh, I was a tad late.

Nothing personal, dude. It just always gets on my tits when people just type 'WRONG' without explanation. That's not contributing to the thread at all.

Whatevs, seems like you discussed everything there was to discuss with freedoms_stain already, so I can only say:

Have a nice evening.


::shakes hand::
#28
^^Not at all. Take Russia for example, where the public was unable to really have a clear view of Putin's character on account of a lack of democratic tradition, economic ruin, and Putin being the defacto successor to Yeltsin. You can't blame the voters for their lack of clairvoyance. The blame rests on corrupt leaders and on them alone.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#29
Quote by freedoms_stain
Choosing to ignore the part which explains how you're wrong.

Not very good at this debate thing are we?

You completely misinterpreted the comment. The point was (that you missed)

If you voted for an election rigger it's your own fault.

Only people IN POWER can rig an election, and to get there they have to be elected. By you.


But it could happen. Thats the bottom line.
#30
Quote by iforgot539
^^Not at all. Take Russia for example, where the public was unable to really have a clear view of Putin's character on account of a lack of democratic tradition, economic ruin, and Putin being the defacto successor to Yeltsin. You can't blame the voters for their lack of clairvoyance. The blame rests on corrupt leaders and on them alone.
Is Putin the best example you could think of?

The most popular politician in Russia who has done enormous good for the country and just stepped down from the position of president?

Quote by Vagabond21
But it could happen. Thats the bottom line.
Only if you're stupid enough to let it.

Socialism can exist without the loss of freedom you fear so badly.

Central goal of socialism is the redistribution of wealth for the greater good of the society. Pretty fucking noble if you ask me.

If you don't like it join the libertarian party and run for office. If you're any good you'll be president in 20 years.

Let me know how that works out for you.
#31
Quote by freedoms_stain
Only if you're stupid enough to let it.

Plus there are certain laws that prevent a single person (or small group of people) to gain enough power to establish some sort of despotism and cut down peoples rights in every democratic country as far as I know. You might think that the government is trying to control you, but fact is that most of the time your representatives are busy controlling their colleagues.

I can see where Vagabond gets his ideas from though. The first attempts at democracy in Europe were absolute trainwrecks, because they were influenced by monarchy too much and the government was hardly controlled. But that has all changed until now.
#32
First one to come to mind. He destroyed any semblance of democracy in Russia, popularity aside. He's followed to power by someone who will most likely turn out to be little more than a puppet. Popularity aside, Putin is not a friend of democracy.

Places where corrupt politicians are elected are almost always young democracies where the people have neither the means nor the experience to select a perfect candidate. You and I come from places with long histories of well functioning democracies, with strong civil society, working media, and a tradition of democracy. In young democracies such advantages don't exist.

You're blaming the victim.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#33
Quote by TheQuailman
Plus there are certain laws that prevent a single person (or small group of people) to gain enough power to establish some sort of despotism and cut down peoples rights in every democratic country as far as I know. You might think that the government is trying to control you, but fact is that most of the time your representatives are busy controlling their colleagues.

I can see where Vagabond gets his ideas from though. The first attempts at democracy in Europe were absolute trainwrecks, because they were influenced by monarchy too much and the government was hardly controlled. But that has all changed until now.
Very true.

Alarm bells should start ringing when governments start altering the laws that limit their powers. That's when it's time to grab the pitchfork and the torch and do some overthrowing.
#34
Quote by freedoms_stain
Is Putin the best example you could think of?

The most popular politician in Russia who has done enormous good for the country and just stepped down from the position of president?

Only if you're stupid enough to let it.

Socialism can exist without the loss of freedom you fear so badly.

Central goal of socialism is the redistribution of wealth for the greater good of the society. Pretty fucking noble if you ask me.

If you don't like it join the libertarian party and run for office. If you're any good you'll be president in 20 years.

Let me know how that works out for you.

i always thought libertarians seemed pretty cool. i don't disagree with thinking that redistribution of wealth is a noble thing to believe in, i just don't believe in it.
#35
Quote by iforgot539
First one to come to mind. He destroyed any semblance of democracy in Russia, popularity aside. He's followed to power by someone who will most likely turn out to be little more than a puppet. Popularity aside, Putin is not a friend of democracy.

Places where corrupt politicians are elected are almost always young democracies where the people have neither the means nor the experience to select a perfect candidate. You and I come from places with long histories of well functioning democracies, with strong civil society, working media, and a tradition of democracy. In young democracies such advantages don't exist.

You're blaming the victim.
Indeed, which is why I think fears over losing your freedom in a westernised country to your government is laughable.

If the people at the top aren't going to play fair you need to do something about it.

It's called civil war, it ain't pretty and you've a decent chance of dying, but at least you'll have a semblance of freedom. And if you win yay you're free, as long as you chose the right leaders this time.
#36
^^But there's tremendous leap between redistribution of wealth and the government/social programs your original post alludes to.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#37
Quote by frottage
i always thought libertarians seemed pretty cool. i don't disagree with thinking that redistribution of wealth is a noble thing to believe in, i just don't believe in it.
I'm not going to start on Libertarians because I honestly don't want to get in an argument filled with hypotheticals.

Suffice to say I don't believe in Libertarianism, I find it to be abhorrently selfish and unsociable.
#38
Quote by frottage
i always thought libertarians seemed pretty cool. i don't disagree with thinking that redistribution of wealth is a noble thing to believe in, i just don't believe in it.


Agreed.

I don't like giving my money to SOME people. Some Crackheads and people who are able to work but simply choose not to don't deserve it IMO.


Quote by freedoms_stain
Only if you're stupid enough to let it.


So, yes it could happen.
Last edited by Vagabond21 at May 7, 2008,