#1
I've played both the 112 and the head, and I liked both, but I couldn't really get a feel for them b/c I didn't want to look like a dick in GC by pushing the volume too far. Is there much of a difference in the head room, I've heard conflicting opinions. Some have said 100 watts is too much tube power and I wont be able to get the sound I want out of it, and other have said there's not a difference in the breakup level and that I should get the 100 watt to give me more flexibility for live situations.

I guess what I'm asking is if the 50 watt breaks up significantly earlier than the 100? If there's not much difference I'll probably get the 100 head.
#2
What size rooms you plan on playing? Are they going to have full sound reinforcement?

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#3
Quote by BaffAttack
What size rooms you plan on playing? Are they going to have full sound reinforcement?


Pretty big music halls, sometimes several hundred people there depending on who the headliner is. most bands use half stacks. I was using my friends recto for a while but sadly he moved so I don't have that luxury anymore.

Not quite sure what you mean by sound reinforcement
#4
I mean, is the PA just for the singers or does it mic up or "reinforce" the whole band. Sorry, it's an industry term, I work in events.

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#5
Quote by BaffAttack
I mean, is the PA just for the singers or does it mic up or "reinforce" the whole band. Sorry, it's an industry term, I work in events.


Gotcha, and yes all the places do mic the whole band. I've seen some bands who don't mic their amps, but a majority of them do.
#6
Quote by zhunt1130
Gotcha, and yes all the places do mic the whole band. I've seen some bands who don't mic their amps, but a majority of them do.


Then personally, I'd say go with the 50. The sound guy will only want you to turn up untill you get your tone, and he'll take care of the rest. You get the 100, you risk having to turn up so loud that he won't have enough headroom in the PA to compensate. I've seen it happen at my job with local BotB's we have almost yearly. They won't listen to us about stage volume and to trust us that we'll make them loud out in the house, and they crank to 11 because that's what they're used to doing to get over the drums and such. Then nobody can hear anything else and comes back to the sound console to ask us to turn up the vocals...well...we can't, go tell the guitarist to turn down.

Sorry, long story short, in those kinds of gigging situations, go lower.

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#7
Makes perfect sense. What about outdoor festival situations, b/c we might get a slot in one this summer?
#8
Quote by zhunt1130
Makes perfect sense. What about outdoor festival situations, b/c we might get a slot in one this summer?


Well, again, same question. I would almost assume they'd have to go full reinforcement for that, with such a large "house."

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#9
yea they do have full reinforcement...I wasn't sure if the fact that it's outdoors would require more output from the amps since well, its outdoors.
#10
Quote by zhunt1130
yea they do have full reinforcement...I wasn't sure if the fact that it's outdoors would require more output from the amps since well, its outdoors.


The more output will have to be from the main reinforcement PA. You would hope, anyway. It's not a perfect world.

However, I'd still err on the side of caution here. You don't want so much power that you have to be really loud to get the good tone, and then the PA is forced to basically double that to get everyone else equal to you.

Heck, you could probably tour arenas with 50 watts, with the proper reinforcement in place. Walls of stacks look awesome, but man, that's gotta be a nightmare for reinforcement.

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#11
Are extension cabs any harder for tech crews to work with...I wouldn't think so considering if the same amount of power coming out, just stereo.
#12
If you actually need a stereo signal output (some rigs do for effects) they'll just have to mic both of them. That's something you need to let them know though. Otherwise they'll just assume you're mono (it's like a stage guys default setting when setting a mic in front of an amp ) and place one mic. Its only harder in the sense that they gotta have two inputs for one guitar instead of one. Waaaah.

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#13
Ok...completely hypothetical situation, say the 100 watter has the same breakup level as the 50 watt...for a live situation would the 100 watter sound any different/better than the 50 watt combo w/ the same exact cab?
#14
I still haven't gotten a straight answer on this...

How does the breakup of the head compare to the 112? I know that the head SHOULD have more headroom, but does it really?
#15
That I don't know. I'm pretty much in agreeance with you that it should. But like you I don't know if if it really does or not.

A lot of GC's don't mind if you sort of "announce" that you're gonna be really cranking an amp to test it's breakup and headroom ability. Maybe you should bite the bullet and rattle the store for a few minutes, just apologize before and after to everyone and tell them the flat truth, that you needed to test the capabilities with your own ear. One of the ones around here even has a room that's somewhat proofed so you can really cranked, though I don't think they did it on purpose, it just sort of happened that way when it was built.

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#16
Sounds like BaffAttack knows what he is talking about and zhunt1130, my advice would be to try to get to GC first thing in the morning and ask the mngr or guitar guy if you can crank both 'cause you really want to buy one but don't know which one.

also, it would be my opinion that the 50 would break up sooner but i also don't think you can run a cab from it. i don't play live, so can't really help with that part nor have i played thru head.

there are a couple of guys on here like Bartdevil and IbanezPsycho that have tried both i believe but they are usually on here later in day/evening US central time so maybe they can chime in (or someone else) so check back.

I am assuming you've searched here already using search box as there has been quite a bit of Valveking discussion lately.

Good luck,

;
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at May 9, 2008,
#17
It's all about clean headroom really. A lower wattage will start distorting earlier which can be undesirable live, but on the actual gain channels it won't make too much difference. This only really matters much on vintage one channel no master volume stuff, where volume pretty much = gain.
#18
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Sounds like BaffAttack knows what he is talking about



Why thank you. I should sig that. Heh.

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#19
100 is overkill in most cases as far as headroom goes imo

Emotion = true music

Gear

Vantage 718dt-1
Epi Special II
Crate V Series 212 18w
Fuzz Factory
MXR Phase 90
#20
Quote by CryingAlone
100 is overkill in most cases as far as headroom goes imo


See that's what I'm worried about. I know theoretically I should have to turn the volume up louder on the 100 watt than I would on the 50 to get the same distortion tone. BUT if the I can get the same distortion out of the head at the same volume as the combo, then I'd rather have the head and the cab that way I'll have the cab for the future.
#21
Maybe I missed something...do you have a Cab now? If so, what is it. If not, what do you want to get and what is your budget for that?

50 and 100 are both loud and either one would probably be miked up for decent size show anyway so i see this more as a portability and $$ issue then a break up issue. You've gotta pedal, these amp have settings, there are attenuators.

So Combo or Half Stack?

??

:
#22
I inferred that he's waffling between the combo and a head/cab, when he said "I've played both the 112 and the head." The 112 is a combo. Basically, I was saying he should go with the 112, if you dissect it down. I doubt he'd be in any situation where he'd need 100 watts of headroom in the near future.

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#23
No I do not have a cab, but if I get a head or combo with one speaker, then I'll be getting a nice one(looking into a Mesa 2x12 w/ V30's)...I want more than one speaker so I figured a getting a good cab now will save me later on in a few years when I get my rectifier. I don't really want to lug around a 4x12.

My main goal is to get rid of my MG. If I had the money or thought I could save up enough before we started playing shows I'd just get a recto, but I just don't have that kind of money. So for the time being I'm just going to sell off my MG and Spider 3 and get something with tube power.
#24
Yeah. I've got the 112. I agree that 50 watts is enough if miked for big shows. I guess your Cab budget was seperate so sorry i missed that.

I don't know if this matters as it sounds like you want to be able to change to diff head later if you go the cab route, but i think you can run a cab out of the 212 combo. i just asked this question in another thread.

you can always sell the 112 later when your ready to step to new head and cab too.

i may be way out of league here and prolly am as i don't gig.

;
#25
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Yeah. I've got the 112. I agree that 50 watts is enough if miked for big shows. I guess your Cab budget was seperate so sorry i missed that.

I don't know if this matters as it sounds like you want to be able to change to diff head later if you go the cab route, but i think you can run a cab out of the 212 combo. i just asked this question in another thread.

you can always sell the 112 later when your ready to step to new head and cab too.

i may be way out of league here and prolly am as i don't gig.

;


If they offered a 50 watt 2x12 combo, problem solved, but sadly they don't. The only reason I'm really even considering the 100 watt is b/c I want more than one speaker, I just think it gives the amp a better sound.

I may just see what I can get for my MG and Spider and evaluate the situation from there. Theres a 2x12 rectifier combo at one of my local store that I really like but it's $1300. Maybe I need to shop around a little more and find a 50ish watt combo with a rectifieresque distortion.
#27
Quote by DashBlaster
Hate to threadjack, but what is headroom? I am looking into getting a Valveking as well.


It's basically a shorthand way of saying "how much volume you have before your signal starts to break up or distort in ways you don't really want/how much volume you have before you start blowing speakers." Here's the link for the wikipedia article that talks about it, but mostly in a digital arena on recordings, but it'll give you an idea of the general idea of what we mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headroom

Basically it's an analogy. The term originally talks about basically having enough space so you would literally not hit your head. So think of it like a ceiling. Sure, you could put something through it...like your head...but the ceiling is in place for a reason. You'd damage both the ceiling and your head. Does that help?

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#28
Quote by zhunt1130
See that's what I'm worried about. I know theoretically I should have to turn the volume up louder on the 100 watt than I would on the 50 to get the same distortion tone. BUT if the I can get the same distortion out of the head at the same volume as the combo, then I'd rather have the head and the cab that way I'll have the cab for the future.


You know, as I re-read this thread and come back to this, I really suggest you find a way to test it out at the GC. Like someone suggested, go early and talk to a manager or something, but definitely listen with your own ears to make this decision.

Your other alternative of basically trading up both your MG and Spider, getting the 112, and then if you ever really needed to, getting the head/cab combo would also work, if you ask me.

But then you threw in that curve of saying something about getting a dual-rec distort tone...and if that's what you're really after, you should save up for the dual-rec, to be honest.

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