#1
Hi!

After reading a bit about these scales, I was messing around with a Dominant 7b5 chord last night, trying to figure out what dimished runs I could come up with over the top of it.

In the end I came up with this lick which uses the E Dim Whole Tone scale over E7b5.

I cannot tab by the way! Apologies. As usual, I don't have my guitar...again, as I'm at work. I bl00dy hope this is right lol!

--------------------------------20--20--22 (bend a whole step to resolve to E)
------------------------19--19--19
----------------17--17--17
-------16---16--16
----15--15
-14

Speed this up and it sounds pretty fun.

Anyway, my point is that I just need some reassurance that I fully understand the theory behind these scales, you know like, the Half Whole scale can also be named as a Dominant Diminished scale, and can be used over a V7 chord. Right?

Whereas the Whole Half scale is used over a Diminsihed chord only - is that correct?

For example, the vii chord in Cmaj would be Bb diminished, so you would use the Bb WH scale over this. BUT, you could substitute that for the HW scale - which is played off of the V degree (G). Correct?

Would both scales have the same effect over the Bb dim. If I'm right, the Bb WH and the G HW should contain the same notes.

One more thing!

The HW scale and Super Locrian mode are quite close in terms of notes. Which scale is played over a certain chord type?

OK I'm gonna shut up now, but some reply's on the theory of all this would be helpful as I want to create add more versatility to solos 'n' stuff. And hope this thread will be helpful to anyone.

T,
M
Last edited by mdc at May 8, 2008,
#2
You're right with the applications of the first two; the half-whole diminished scale is commonly used in dominant harmony (though also used over m7 and half-diminished chords), whereas a whole-half scale would function well over a diminished chord. As for your example, simply look at the notes of the scales (you're looking for F half-whole, G is the sixth degree):
Bb diminished chord: Bb Db Fb Abb
Bb whole-half: Bb C C# D# E F# G A
F half-whole: F Gb Ab A B C D Eb
So there you can see that there are certainly some similarities between the two, but they're not the same exact thing unless I made an error, which is entirely possible.

And the Super Locrian scale, if I remember correctly, is used over heavily altered dominant chords, I believe 7b9#13 being the most characteristic.
#3
The Dominant Diminished scale is a great scale to use whenever you've got weird dominant movement going on too. As if you were going from a GMaj7 (which you'd be soloing over with a D7, its dominant) to a Bb-7 or Eb7 (both of which you use Eb7 to solo over with). Dominant Diminished can get you out of a bunch of tricky situations and is a great scale to run riffs over on. Every now and then I use it over a Min7 chord instead of Harmonic Minor or Dorian just to change up the sound.
#4
Quote by :-D
As for your example, simply look at the notes of the scales (you're looking for F half-whole, G is the sixth degree):
Bb diminished chord: Bb Db Fb Abb
Bb whole-half: Bb C C# D# E F# G A
F half-whole: F Gb Ab A B C D Eb

So there you can see that there are certainly some similarities between the two, but they're not the same exact thing unless I made an error, which is entirely possible.

And the Super Locrian scale, if I remember correctly, is used over heavily altered dominant chords, I believe 7b9#13 being the most characteristic.


Thanks,

This has opened up some new ideas for me to try out. I believe I made a mistake with all that typing in the 1st post- it would be a B dim in the key of C. So the G is the 5th degree.

Re. the bit in red. Isn't the A# the vii in Bmaj? So the V would be F#, not F. So would it be F# H-W to imply dominant harmnony?

Sorry if I'm missing the point.

Guitar Theory thanks for your post too, gonna try all that stuff.
#5
Quote by mdc
Thanks,

This has opened up some new ideas for me to try out. I believe I made a mistake with all that typing in the 1st post- it would be a B dim in the key of C. So the G is the 5th degree.

Re. the bit in red. Isn't the A# the vii in Bmaj? So the V would be F#, not F. So would it be F# H-W to imply dominant harmnony?

Sorry if I'm missing the point.

Guitar Theory thanks for your post too, gonna try all that stuff.

I read that incorrectly, I thought you were trying to say that the V of the Bb diminished scale would be G. But yes, you were correct with your naming; I just misunderstood you.

As per your A# comment, I was working with the Bb scale so the fifth degree would be F. If you're working in B major, then yes, the F# would be your V. The dominant harmony is implied by what's going on underneath you, such as a chord progression. The half-whole scale on its own won't imply the dominant harmony; it actually would work over diminished chords as well, but would achieve a different effect than the whole-half diminished scale which is used more often than the half-whole in the context of diminished harmony. Once a dominant harmonic structure is implied, the half-whole diminished scale will simply be used along with it.

And I would definitely listen to Guitar_Theory; I happen to be at college with this gentleman and can tell you with certainty that he knows his stuff.
#6
Hey, I'm back with some more of this crazy dominant diminished madness that's been going on in my head, and on the guitar for a while. Well I've been doing some studying and I've come up with this now. Hope it's right = ] Check out this simple progression:

Gmaj7 / D7b9 / B7 / Em7

Now going through tritone substitution, I think the Dominant D and B chords can be swapped for each other? So I could use the H-W scale from either of these roots and play across the changes which'll create dominant harmony? Or I could just use the C W-H scale too I think.

By using tritone sub I found two more chords that could be thrown in as well. How about these? F7b9 and Ab7b9.

Am I getting the hang of this.
#7
Quote by quinny1089
i dont know if i'm missin something important here... but vii chord of C maj would be B...not Bb....

i'm sure it was a typo

EDIT: Nevermind - i see the TS already acknowledged the mistake

anyways...i'll actually be keeping up with this thread, diminished scales are pretty much the one set of scale i havent explored in my playing yet, definitely the next step i think.


And it'd be B half diminished, not B diminished.
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt.
He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.


Remember: A prudent question is one half of wisdom.

Click.
#8
Quote by Resiliance
And it'd be B half diminished, not B diminished.


It could be seen as a B diminished triad if you don't include the b7.
#9
Quote by mdc
It could be seen as a B diminished triad if you don't include the b7.


Correct. I found it to be very misleading though, as I'm sure many others would have, considering 7th chords (or even more extended chords) are discussed many more times than basic triads in here. When one doesn't have the addendum "triad", I assume we're talking about at least a 7th chord. Just pointing it out.
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt.
He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.


Remember: A prudent question is one half of wisdom.

Click.
#10
I guess that's the difference between the vii chord in major and the vii chord in harmonic minor (full diminished 7th)