#1
As there is a raised 7th in the harmonic minor scale, what do you do about the VI chord, which could be major or minor now?

For example, in the Am scale, it seems to me that both F and Fm fit.

Do they both get accepted as being in key, or is one of them still thought of as "out"?
#2
Technically the Fm would be Fsus#2(the G# serves as an augmented second rather than a minor third). It is much more common practice to use a major chord.
#3
Quote by grampastumpy
Technically the Fm would be Fsus#2(the G# serves as an augmented second rather than a minor third). It is much more common practice to use a major chord.
Yes, but the point of writing music is to communicate ideas with other musicians as easy as possible. Even though it is technically incorrect, I would write it as Fm.


Both chords are acceptable, though F would be more common than Fm.


This is due to the fact that the harmonic minor scale is not usually used over an entire progression. For instance, a typical minor progression is Am G F E7. A Natural Minor works over the first three chords, but you would switch to A Harmonic Minor over E7.

I hope this makes sense; I have been worn out by this putz who can't grasp that I can use a Gm D7 progression (same idea, different key).
#4
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Yes, but the point of writing music is to communicate ideas with other musicians as easy as possible. Even though it is technically incorrect, I would write it as Fm.


Both chords are acceptable, though F would be more common than Fm.


This is due to the fact that the harmonic minor scale is not usually used over an entire progression. For instance, a typical minor progression is Am G F E7. A Natural Minor works over the first three chords, but you would switch to A Harmonic Minor over E7.

I hope this makes sense; I have been worn out by this putz who can't grasp that I can use a Gm D7 progression (same idea, different key).


Yeah that's true. I was actually going to include that but it slipped my mind.
#5
Quote by grampastumpy
I was actually going to include that but it slipped my mind.
If you mean that you were going to link that thread, then please don't do that. I can barely understand it, let alone n00bs.
#7
I'm going to play a prank on him!

Edit: On second thought, I'm not going to tell him to play E##dim7 over the whole thing. I don't need to go out of my way to be a bitch. I do that enough of that through normal posting!
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at May 8, 2008,
#8
Lemme seeeeeeee!!! I hope it brings lulz.

To avoid spammage, the harmonic minor scale is mostly used just on a chord that has the raised 7th in it. So the V, iidim7, viidim7, etc. And the chords themselves generally don't follow the harmonic minor scale until they go for something vaguely resembling a V i resolution (Am G F E7).

EDIT:
I can only imagine what sort of response he'd come up with. "Omg u gays are like corutping teh theory to make it fit wat u say! pitch axis!!!"
#10
Thanks for the replies so far, they've been really helpful.

I'd just add to some of the chord progressions you've mentioned, by bringing up the transition from IV to iv (e.g. F to Fm), for example in Citizen Erased by Muse, or (I think, but I'm too sleepy to look it up) Creep by Radiohead. That's normally the other way that harmonic minor is used.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
#12
IV to iv is absolutely huge. I generally think of it as the third chromatically resolving down to the fifth of the I. So in C major, the IV(F)'s third would be A, the iv's Ab, and the I's fifth G. Borrowing the G# from the relative harmonic minor is also fine.

And yeah, it's in Creep for sure, don't know about that other song. It goes I iii IV iv, forget what key though.
#13
Quote by grampastumpy
IV to iv is absolutely huge. I generally think of it as the third chromatically resolving down to the fifth of the I. So in C major, the IV(F)'s third would be A, the iv's Ab, and the I's fifth G. Borrowing the G# from the relative harmonic minor is also fine.

And yeah, it's in Creep for sure, don't know about that other song. It goes I iii IV iv, forget what key though.
This has nothing to do with harmonic minor. You're borrowing the Fm from the parallel key of Cm or, if you want to think even less, you do it because it sounds good.

It's cool, and even cooler if you play Fdim7 instead of Fm, but has nothing to do with harmonic minor.
#14
Apologies, I meant VI to vi, I just put them round the wrong way. Like I said, I'm very tired. But yeah, from C major it would IV to iv.
#15
Quote by toxica
Apologies, I meant VI to vi, I just put them round the wrong way. Like I said, I'm very tired. But yeah, from C major it would IV to iv.
It has kind of a "Batman" Movie Score feel when you play Cm Ab Abm. I haven't seen that used enough to say that it's a common use of harmonic minor, but it works.


I don't have enough experience with this progression to say whether or not there is a better way to describe it than with C Harmonic Minor, but there probably is.
#16
Hmm, actually now that I think about it that makes sense. IV iv just about never ends up resolving to the relative harmonic minor anyway. Then I stick by my chromatic resolution thing then. Because it sounds cool also works.

In this case then, no that's not what they're doing in Creep because it's in a major key, not the relative minor.

While it's not the most common use of harmonic minor, I've written a song where part of it goes Am Fm Dm G#m(the G#m is from the double harmonic minor). It's a death metal piece and is definitely not the most traditionally pretty sound out there, hence why VI is way more common than vi.
#17
Quote by grampastumpy
Hmm, actually now that I think about it that makes sense. IV iv just about never ends up resolving to the relative harmonic minor anyway. Then I stick by my chromatic resolution thing then. Because it sounds cool also works.
IV iv is supposed to resolve to I, not vi.
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
IV iv is supposed to resolve to I, not vi.
? That's what I'm saying. F Fm never resolves to Am but rather to C.