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#1
I've been studying Shakespeare but only recently have I noticed an apparent anamoly in his language, in Julius Caesar, Mark Antony says during his great speech "Oh Judgement! Thou are fled to brutish beasts and men have lost their reason", what confuses me is that he used the word "brutish", which if I am correct only came to use after Brutus' atrocities in killing Caesar, subsequently anything barbaric or untamed in nature has been considered "brutish" or "brutal" or some other form of the adjective.

So what I ask you here is that, how could Mark Antony have said this before the word ever came into being, did he invent it? If so this would have had little meaning since Brutus has not been been antagonised by the mob or history as a whole.

Thoughts?

Shredeidt: Happy now Saphrax?
Last edited by Shred Head at May 9, 2008,
#3
The play was written in the 16th century, that's why it's there. It's not an anomaly, because Shakespeare wasn't a roman. There were plenty of latin words with meanings equivalent to 'brutish' that existed before Ceaser's assasination. But 'brutish' is the one that Bill thought would get the meaning across most effectively to the audience of the time.

EDIT: should also point out that Shakespeare never claimed that his work was history, and he was instead creating art. Therefore a significant degree of license is perfectly acceptable.
#5
Wait, how can you say Marc Antony made up a word, when he died a 1000+ years before Shakespeare?
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#7
I realize that but shouldn't Shakespeare have realized the misplaced word when he was writing the story? Oh but it could be Plutarch's fault because he was the source of much of Shakespeare's history
#8
Quote by Shred Head
Thou are fled to brutish beats


So he liked techno? Maybe they had it in those days?

Seriously though, Shakespeare wrote stories. It is within his artistic licence to use language from a more modern era in his historical tragedies.
#10
The tragedy of Julius Ceasar was written long after the death of Ceasar. The word brutish or brutal was around at the time. Shakespeare probably shouldn't have used it in this context as in the time period the peice is set the word was not arround. But hey, call it a continuity error
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#11
Ever seen films where a jet flies in the sky and the film's set in the 1700s or something?

well it's kinda like that.

If we're gonna get technical about it, Marc Anthony wouldn't have said any of what he did in shakespeare, he would have been speaking latin.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#12
Quote by Lemoninfluence
Ever seen films where a jet flies in the sky and the film's set in the 1700s or something?

well it's kinda like that.

If we're gonna get technical about it, Marc Anthony wouldn't have said any of what he did in shakespeare, he would have been speaking latin.


That too
Out here you've gotta know where your towel is!
#13
Quote by Baa I'm a Sheep
Shakespeare wasnt really a great writer.


He was pretty damn good.
#15
Quote by Lemoninfluence
Ever seen films where a jet flies in the sky and the film's set in the 1700s or something?

well it's kinda like that.

If we're gonna get technical about it, Marc Anthony wouldn't have said any of what he did in shakespeare, he would have been speaking latin.

True, but the least Shakespeare could do was be a little historically accurate?
#16
Quote by Baa I'm a Sheep
Shakespeare wasnt really a great writer.



Ahaha, you're kidding right? Unless you are referring to the claim that Lord Bacon was actually the author of all the Shakespearean masterpieces?

If Shakespeare wasn't that great of a writer, then pray tell, who it your most valued opinion qualifies as a great writer?
Show me a crowd where the band is loud
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#17
Quote by Shred Head
True, but the least Shakespeare could do was be a little historically accurate?

who's to say it wasn't intentional?
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#18
ha, very clever.
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#19
Quote by bmcmillin
Ahaha, you're kidding right? Unless you are referring to the claim that Lord Bacon was actually the author of all the Shakespearean masterpieces?

If Shakespeare wasn't that great of a writer, then pray tell, who it your most valued opinion qualifies as a great writer?


Actually, the most common claim is the it was Marlowe that wrote Shakespeare's work (other than the claim that it was actually Shakespeare...i mean, who in their right mind would believe a thing like that ) and truthfully, Marlowe is a hell of a poet. Imho, better than Shakespeare, but I'm no literary expert, and i've not read all of the work of either of them.
#20
Quote by Shred Head
True, but the least Shakespeare could do was be a little historically accurate?


Well there might have been an equivalent in Latin at that time, which was unrelated to Brutus, and then Shakespeare wrote it out in English. I don't know, I don't think it's worth getting hung up on the accuracy.

Are you sure it's not just a subtle form of foreshadowing?
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#22
Quote by bmcmillin
Ahaha, you're kidding right? Unless you are referring to the claim that Lord Bacon was actually the author of all the Shakespearean masterpieces?

If Shakespeare wasn't that great of a writer, then pray tell, who it your most valued opinion qualifies as a great writer?


He certainly wasnt original,quite alot of his work can be seen to be derived from that of other writers,which in my "most valued opinion" hardly constitutes a great writer.

Also
#23
Quote by break-me-in
Are you sure it's not just a subtle form of foreshadowing?
+1

shakespeare is deep.
.
..
...
I have no opinion on this matter.
#24
Quote by Shred Head
I've been studying Shakespeare but only recently have I noticed an apparent anamoly in his language, in Julius Caesar, Mark Antony says during his great speech "Oh Judgement! Thou are fled to brutish beasts and men have lost their reason", what confuses me is that he used the word "brutish", which if I am correct only came to use after Brutus' atrocities in killing Caesar, subsequently anything barbaric or untamed in nature has been considered "brutish" or "brutal" or some other form of the adjective.

So what I ask you here is that, how could Mark Antony have said this before the word ever came into being, did he invent it? If so this would have had little meaning since Brutus has not been been antagonised by the mob or history as a whole.

Thoughts?

Shredeidt: Happy now Saphrax?

The play is in english, Marc Antony was speaking in Latin. Brutish could've just been a translation of a latin word. (I am aware that Julius Caesar is fiction I'm implying the possibility.)
#25
Quote by Mad_BOB
Actually, the most common claim is the it was Marlowe that wrote Shakespeare's work (other than the claim that it was actually Shakespeare...i mean, who in their right mind would believe a thing like that ) and truthfully, Marlowe is a hell of a poet. Imho, better than Shakespeare, but I'm no literary expert, and i've not read all of the work of either of them.


Taken from Wikipedia:

The Shakespeare authorship question, which ascribes the famous plays to various contemporaries instead of Shakespeare of Stratford, has produced a large number of candidates, of whom Bacon is one of the most popular. An 1888 two-volume book, "The Great Cryptogram", by American journalist and adventurer Ignatius Donnely, had much to do with this. Donnely developed complex numerical schemes for working out hidden messages within the plays, but his methods "were so flexible that one could literally use them to obtain any desired text."[6] Donnely himself used them to discover that Bacon had written not only Shakespeare, but Montaigne and Marlowe as well.[7] After Donnely the Baconian theory became extremely popular and gave birth to many further studies of Bacon's cipher. Edward Clark's late 19th century "The Tale of the Shakspere Epitaph by Francis Bacon" referred to an inscription on a bust of Shakespeare which he asserted concealed the sentence, "FRA BA WRT EAR AY", an abbreviation of "Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays." Another author, Francis Carr, has suggested that Bacon wrote not only Shakespeare's plays but Don Quixote as well,[8] while Dr Orville Owen, in his monumental (5 volumes) "Francis Bacon's Cipher Story" (1893-95), recounted his success in using a special machine to prove Bacon the true author of Shakespeare and the son of the Earl of Leicester and Elizabeth I. Even Mark Twain was a Baconian arguing vigorously for Bacon and ridiculing the "Stratfordolators" and the "Shakespearoids" in "Is Shakespeare Dead?" (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1909).[9] Friedrich Nietzsche, in his Ecce Homo (II, 4), also opined that Bacon was the true author of Shakespeare's plays, despite mockingly referring to Donnely as a "muddlehead and blockhead."
Show me a crowd where the band is loud
And my drunken ballet is in fashion!

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#26
Probably the same reason that the play isn't in Latin.
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#27
Quote by Baa I'm a Sheep
Shakespeare wasnt really a great writer.

said the guy who has pedobear as his avatar . He was a seriously good writer.
#28
Quote by Baa I'm a Sheep
He certainly wasnt original,quite alot of his work can be seen to be derived from that of other writers,which in my "most valued opinion" hardly constitutes a great writer.

Also



You find me a writer that doesn't draw heavily from other writers, the fact that you've cleverely inserted the word 'derived', to suggest that his writing was derivative does not change the fact that was actually highly original and excites people even to this day.
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#29
Quote by Baa I'm a Sheep
He certainly wasnt original,quite alot of his work can be seen to be derived from that of other writers,which in my "most valued opinion" hardly constitutes a great writer.

Also



Okay, so then who do you think is a great writer?
Show me a crowd where the band is loud
And my drunken ballet is in fashion!

-- Jerry Riopelle
#30
Quote by StonaLemons
said the guy who has pedobear as his avatar . He was a seriously good writer.

I agree. People with internet memes for avatars have no right to have opinions on literature.
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#31
Quote by whalepudding
I agree. People with internet memes for avatars have no right to have opinions on literature.

Well most internet meme's/4chan aren't really the greatest peices of literature are they?

Its like a guitar hero player saying whos a good guitarist and such, maybe he has some idea but quite often not...
#32
Quote by StonaLemons
Well most internet meme's/4chan aren't really the greatest peices of literature are they?

Its like a guitar hero player saying whos a good guitarist and such, maybe he has some idea but quite often not...

Wut?

A really good sandwich isn't exactly a good song, but people can still both be good songwriters and make damn good sammiches.
I'LL PUNCH A DONKEY IN THE STREETS OF GALWAY
#33
Quote by bmcmillin
Taken from Wikipedia:

The Shakespeare authorship question, which ascribes the famous plays to various contemporaries instead of Shakespeare of Stratford, has produced a large number of candidates, of whom Bacon is one of the most popular. An 1888 two-volume book, "The Great Cryptogram", by American journalist and adventurer Ignatius Donnely, had much to do with this. Donnely developed complex numerical schemes for working out hidden messages within the plays, but his methods "were so flexible that one could literally use them to obtain any desired text."[6] Donnely himself used them to discover that Bacon had written not only Shakespeare, but Montaigne and Marlowe as well.[7] After Donnely the Baconian theory became extremely popular and gave birth to many further studies of Bacon's cipher. Edward Clark's late 19th century "The Tale of the Shakspere Epitaph by Francis Bacon" referred to an inscription on a bust of Shakespeare which he asserted concealed the sentence, "FRA BA WRT EAR AY", an abbreviation of "Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays." Another author, Francis Carr, has suggested that Bacon wrote not only Shakespeare's plays but Don Quixote as well,[8] while Dr Orville Owen, in his monumental (5 volumes) "Francis Bacon's Cipher Story" (1893-95), recounted his success in using a special machine to prove Bacon the true author of Shakespeare and the son of the Earl of Leicester and Elizabeth I. Even Mark Twain was a Baconian arguing vigorously for Bacon and ridiculing the "Stratfordolators" and the "Shakespearoids" in "Is Shakespeare Dead?" (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1909).[9] Friedrich Nietzsche, in his Ecce Homo (II, 4), also opined that Bacon was the true author of Shakespeare's plays, despite mockingly referring to Donnely as a "muddlehead and blockhead."


Very cool read
#35
One of us appears to have a broken sarcasm detector.
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#37
Let's dwell on the fact that he used the word "brutish" before it had been created (which can't be proven by our ignorant minds anyway, since I'm sure almost none of us are literary scholars) and ignore the fact that in Ancient Rome there were no candles, calendars, clocks, or anything of this sort, all of which are mentioned in Julius Caesar. Shakespeare used plenty of anachronisms in his writing in order to help in moving the play along and get the point across better to the audience. How else is he to inform the audience in one line of dialogue that it's 3 in the morning, besides saying that the clock had struck 3? He never claimed his work to be history. It's historical fiction, but by no means intended to be historically accurate.
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#38
Perhaps it was a hint. Shakespeare did a fair bit of this, marking characters out to be tragic and stuff.
#40
Quote by Vale_Deo
Let's dwell on the fact that he used the word "brutish" before it had been created (which can't be proven by our ignorant minds anyway, since I'm sure almost none of us are literary scholars) and ignore the fact that in Ancient Rome there were no candles, calendars, clocks, or anything of this sort, all of which are mentioned in Julius Caesar. Shakespeare used plenty of anachronisms in his writing in order to help in moving the play along and get the point across better to the audience. How else is he to inform the audience in one line of dialogue that it's 3 in the morning, besides saying that the clock had struck 3? He never claimed his work to be history. It's historical fiction, but by no means intended to be historically accurate.

Good point, candles did exist back then by the way, the Egyptians used them too, I realize my mistakes in taking what was not meant to be history into true fact, I apologize but was simply wondering whether other UGers had noticed this as well after all in only my second day of learning Shakespeare my teacher warned us against believing any historical facts Shakespeare set out.
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