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#1
Ive been trying to learn the major and minor pentatonics lately. Ive learned all the majors, and i just started c minor, and realised that it is the same as d# major.

Is this to do with relative minors or something ive heard about?
#2
You would call in Eb major, but yes, this is relative majors/minor at work.

C minor and Eb major contain the same notes. However, they have very different functions as scales. You don't play a melody over a Cm progression and say that it comes from the Eb major scale; that's absurd. You say it comes from the Cm scale.

More help can be provided as needed.
#3
^ technically Eb major but its irrelevent to you i think right now in the very very beginning. they do contain they same notes but consider that the only common ground between the 2.

edit: beat to it by BGC..... foiled again.... back to my lair.
#4
its NOT absurd to think of them as the same its the same pool of notes.
so its fine to simplify, thats very common in jazz music

think key not chrod
#9
Quote by patfarlow
c minor is relative minor of eb major SAME NOTES
I'm quite aware of that and actually stated that very fact in my original post, the one with which you disagreed.


How do you suggest using Cm over an Eb chord to form an implied Ebmaj13 chord? And why wouldn't you just use Eb major?

These are the things you need to answer, because once you give your answer, I can work with you to correct your incorrect knowledge.
#10
in jazz nothing is set in stone

so when you see4 a maj shord you can use any extention
6, 9, 13, etc

so to think of the cm and eb as synonymous is more than fine because it implies an extentsion in the solo.

some teachers at berklee even use flash cards to get students to react quickly to maj and minor key changes.
#11
Edit: Noobs, kindly ignore this poster on this subject. If you play the notes of an Eb major scale over an Eb progression, it is the Eb major scale, not Cm. That's it.

Poster: I don't care if you understand this concept or not. If you're open to learning about music theory, cooperate with me and the others who will help. Else, stop posting. I am done arguing with you.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at May 9, 2008,
#12
play a cminor over ebflat major
and youll get a a beautiful maj13 chord

youre new to theory i see

because C is the 13th


jazz is ahead of you
#13
Wow didn't mean to start such an argument lol. Well at least i know that it is the same sort of. Thanks guys!
#14
Quote by patfarlow


youre new to theory i see


ROFLMAO

no no no no no .....

it simply doesn't work that way

listen to BGC, she really does know what shes talking about.

Quote by patfarlow
play a cminor over ebflat major
and youll get a a beautiful maj13 chord


this i think is true (im at work i dont wanna do the musical math in my head right now but this sounds right) BUT you're still implying a major chord and a major scale. not a minor scale.
#15
Quote by patfarlow
play a cminor over ebflat major
A chord? An arp? What?

I'm open to the idea of playing a Cm arp over an Eb major chord, but to say that you're playing the Cm scale over an Eb major progression is wrong.


Nugiboy: They are not the same. Don't let this poster trick you into thinking they are.

Yes, the contain the same notes. Yes, they can be played with the same patterns and boxes. However, the context determines the scale. If you're playing a progression in the key of Eb, it is an Eb major scale. If you're playing a progression in the key of Cm, it is a Cm scale.
#16
Quote by patfarlow
c minor is relative minor of eb major SAME NOTES

Fine. That's the one thing they have in common; you're choosing to ignore the fact that they have completely different tonal centers and intervals. It has nothing to do with "in jazz, nothing is set in stone", which is a pretty dumb statement to make in the first place. You just have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
#18
youre over thinking
once this stuff is more comfortable for you it will condense and simplify

trust me

every one knows context determines the sound.

so that being said if youre jaming in cminor and you play starting from the eflat
people wont go "hey stop thats a major scale that doesnt sound right"
it will sound fine

so for a someone to think of them as the same its simplifies when reading fast lead sheets especcially

if anything it will HELP when looking at the fretboard not only can beginners
scanning look for a eflat to start from they can also look for the C at the same time!
that can help the fretboard get a little smaller
and less intimidating.

easy.
#19
Quote by patfarlow
so that being said if youre jaming in cminor and you play starting from the eflat
people wont go "hey stop thats a major scale that doesnt sound right"
it will sound fine

Just stop speaking now. If you're playing in C minor and start "using notes from the Eb scale", you're just using the notes from C minor. They have the same notes, but the tonal center is C so you're playing C minor. It's that simple.

Stop telling BGC and myself that we're not comfortable with this stuff, open a book and realize that you're entirely wrong.
#20
They are of-course different scales, and BGC is right in that if your are playing the notes of C minor, there is no reason to say they are from the Eb Major scale.
they are related scales that share the same notes. (C minor = relative minor of Eb Major)
BGC answered the TS's question, im not sure I get what the argument is?

Quote by patfarlow


every one knows context determines the sound.


well not everyone. As you advance this becomes more apparent though.


you want to know they are related, but you also should know they are different scales, with different sounds. You obviously know that though, and your points about superimposing an arpeggio over a different chord to produce upper extensions are great, but keep in mind that concept is likely a little over the head of someone that is just realizing what a relative minor is.

For the TS its enough to know.... they are different scales, but are related & share the same notes. thats enough for now IMO. The other stuff comes later.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 9, 2008,
#21
wrong

its called tracing thigs to the parent scale which is major.

so its very common for players to see am and cmaj as the same thing
.
#22
Quote by patfarlow
wrong

its called tracing thigs to the parent scale which is major.

so its very common for players to see am and cmaj as the same thing
.

If you're in C minor, the parent scale is C minor. So nice try.
#24
Quote by patfarlow
check the jazz book by mark levine

Well, I don't have it so I can't check it and I don't need to. The parent scale is the scale based on the key that you're in. In C minor, that would be the C natural minor scale. Anything you're doing is based off of the C natural minor scale if the key suggests it.

The 3 parent minor scales are natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor, though you seem to be ignoring the fact that parent minor scales exist.
#25
Quote by patfarlow
wrong

its called tracing thigs to the parent scale which is major.

so its very common for players to see am and cmaj as the same thing
.



well not the same thing.... but rather "the same set of notes" with different tonal centers.

Thinking of things from the parent scale is fine, but when your learning what "relative minors" are, its important to realize they are different scales, with different sounds.

You seem to understand the idea, but dont realize that what your talking about is over the head of the TS.

I understand what set off the argument ( the use of the word "absurd").
Ill agree with you that its by no means absurd.... thats a very unnecessarily harsh way to put it, but what some people are just like that.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 9, 2008,
#26
youre using the term incorecctly

parent scale refers to major scale the aeolian is derived from.
#27
Quote by patfarlow
wrong

its called tracing thigs to the parent scale which is major.

so its very common for players to see am and cmaj as the same thing
.


Yes but this is wrong, they are completely different. In Jazz you can get away with a lot of things. They'll just come out jazzy, however, if you don't want a jazzy sound you have to be a little more careful.
#28
Quote by patfarlow
youre using the term incorecctly

parent scale refers to major scale the aeolian is derived from.

If you're in a major key then yes, the natural minor scale is derived from it and your major scale is the parent scale. But in the case of a minor key, the natural minor is your parent scale. The major scale is NOT the only parent scale.

This wasn't even what you were babbling on about in the first place.
#29
youre using the term incorecctly

parent scale refers to major scale the aeolian is derived from.


aeolian is mode 6

6 relatively to 1 which is TONIC MAJOR
#30
Quote by patfarlow
youre using the term incorecctly

parent scale refers to major scale the aeolian is derived from.


aeolian is mode 6

6 relatively to 1 which is TONIC MAJOR

If you're in a minor key, your tonic chord is minor and the Aeolian is the scale based off the first degree. All modes would be based off of that natural minor scale, so it's the parent scale of the minor key, you imbecile.

Otherwise, the major scale would simply be called the parent scale.
#31
Quote by patfarlow
youre using the term incorecctly

parent scale refers to major scale the aeolian is derived from.


well IMO your using it wrong also. if something is in a minor key, there is no reason to trace it back to the "parent scale". Thats not the appropriate way to use that, although you could do it if you want.
where the "parent scale" thing comes in handy, is when your soloing over changes, and you get a bunch of ii V's. its easier to think of the parent scale, then to think a different mode for each chord.

as smiley (sorry dude, dont know what to call you) said, if your in a minor key.... that minor key is the parent scale.
for instance your in A minor, and you run into Bm7b5 - E7b9....... the parent scale is A harmonic minor. There is no reason to bring up C major there as it would not be appropriate.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 9, 2008,
#33
think key not chord

nobody thinks modes when they play

joe pass, wes montgomery, emily remler. all simplify make it major
in their heads.
#34
Quote by patfarlow
think key not chord

nobody thinks modes when they play

joe pass, wes montgomery, emily remler. all simplify make it major
in their heads.

No, some people do think about modes when they play. Regardless, thinking about playing a minor scale in a minor key isn't thinking modally, it's just having an understanding of what the fuck you're doing. Which you don't.

And just because it's easier to think about something a certain way doesn't make it right. If your tonal center is A and you play the notes C D E F G A B, you're playing A minor. Not C major.

And if you're suggesting not to think about the chords you're playing over, you're hopelessly stupid.
#35
youre so far behind


if you play aminor over cmajor IT WILL SOUND GOOD

you idot

call it major scale or minor scale its the same ****ing thing
a pool of notes to manipulate.

i am saying when you find your self playing giant seps for first time try thinking modally asshole.

youll choke
you wont think dorian mixo dorian mixo

you have to think KEY NOT CHORD
its stepping back and understanding its all the same.
#36
Quote by patfarlow
youre so far behind


if you play aminor over cmajor IT WILL SOUND GOOD

you idot

call it major scale or minor scale its the same ****ing thing
a pool of notes to manipulate.

i am saying when you find your self playing giant seps for first time try thinking modally asshole.

youll choke
you wont think dorian mixo dorian mixo

you have to think KEY NOT CHORD
its stepping back and understanding its all the same.


well its a pool of notes, but understanding context can be very helpful as well.

just out of curiosity, would you be thinking of when playing over giant steps?
#37
Quote by patfarlow
An incessant wall of bullshit.

And now you've again proven that you have less understanding of this concept and music theory in general than the average ice cream cone.

I never argued that it didn't sound good, so stop telling me so. I know that if you play C D E F G A B over a static C chord it'll sound good. But it's C major because the tonal center suggests it. It's not A minor because you're not revolving around a tonal center of A. But again, that point will fall on deaf ears.

If you're playing jazz, it's much more helpful to think about the chords as opposed to a key because thinking about chords individually allows for a lot more freedom. And you can certainly think modally and be fine; I've done so in numerous situations. However, this calls for more cognitive capacity than you have shown yourself to have.

I'm only "far behind" in this morass of idiocy than you seem to believe is music theory. Shut up.
#38
Quote by :-D
And now you've again proven that you have less understanding of this concept and music theory in general than the average ice cream cone.

I never argued that it didn't sound good, so stop telling me so. I know that if you play C D E F G A B over a static C chord it'll sound good. But it's C major because the tonal center suggests it. It's not A minor because you're not revolving around a tonal center of A. But again, that point will fall on deaf ears.

If you're playing jazz, it's much more helpful to think about the chords as opposed to a key because thinking about chords individually allows for a lot more freedom. And you can certainly think modally and be fine; I've done so in numerous situations. However, this calls for more cognitive capacity than you have shown yourself to have.

I'm only "far behind" in this morass of idiocy than you seem to believe is music theory. Shut up.


I have to say it really depends on the situation: how fast the chords are moving, tempo of the song.....

if I see a clear chord progression in a particular key, I would definately think of the key.

there are times when a modal approach makes more sense.

You guys really dont need to argue this, as I've been taught both perspectives, by different, yet equally good musicians. The truth is there is room for many points of view.

the thing is though, the TS just discovered the concept of the "relative minor".... none of this stuff is really even relevant.
#39
you idiot no ones arguing over aminor being called aminor
i never said playing a aminor scale while in C some how changes the key to AMin either

it is my point that you guys telling some beginner its absurd to see them synonomous is STUPID

you can also think of aminor as just a cmaj13

doesnt make it wrong

its just some of its potential

so i begeveryone dont listen to these closeed minds.
you can think of am and cMAJ as the same thing many teachers do.

so get over yourself haha
#40
Then I'll refer you to this stroke of genius:
so that being said if youre jaming in cminor and you play starting from the eflat
people wont go "hey stop thats a major scale that doesnt sound right"
it will sound fine

This indicates that you think you're playing in Eb over a C minor chord. Which is wrong. That's the original point I was arguing.

We're just trying to get people to see that just because they're comprised of the same notes doesn't mean they're the same thing. In other words, we don't want more people like you in the world.
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