Page 1 of 2
#1
Right now I'm writing a rock/blues styled song with a fairly basic I-IV-V progression in G, but I want to break out of the box a little when it comes time for the solo.

I'd like to figure out a way to sneak a solo in that has a Lydian or perhaps a Phrygian feel, but I'm not really sure how I would go about doing it and making it sound good. Obviously I can't simply play G Phrygian or Lydian over that progression and have it sound correct.

The only thing I've done so far that kind of works is to have the rhythm hang on the IV chord for the entire solo, which does give the Lydian feel, but still isn't quite right either.

Anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

As a note, my knowledge of the modes is primarily based on how they sound, I spent a lot of time practicing each mode with it's root E, while having the low E ringing open, so I understand the sound and feel of each, and I understand that the mode is dictated by the chords you're playing over, but from there I've never really been able to apply any of it.
#4
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Is it a standard blues progression?

If so, Phrygian and Lydian wouldn't be the best options, but those chord open up a lot of options.


That's kind of why I wanted to do it

But it's vaguely based around a blues progression. Major and minor both work and sound fine, dorian and mixolydian work to an extent as well.
#5
Play any one of these over the major chords: Lydian mixolydian and ionian. And any of these over the minor chords: aeolian phrygian and dorian.

If you want a bluesy/rock feel, I wouldnt suggest playing modally. I would suggest playing pentatonics with the occasional accidental note.
#6
Quote by demonofthenight
Play any one of these over the major chords: Lydian mixolydian and ionian. And any of these over the minor chords: aeolian phrygian and dorian.

If you want a bluesy/rock feel, I wouldnt suggest playing modally. I would suggest playing pentatonics with the occasional accidental note.


^+1 Over the V chord you could try D min blues pentatonic - that would be with the b5 (Ab). Or play Pent shape 1 a 5th above (A) and flatten the 7ths to a maj 6th. This will bring out the maj 3rd

One more? Minor pent a 3rd above (F#) and flatten the 5ths, this will bring out the b7 (C). I haven't got my guitar for all this so correct me of any mistakes.

Over the I chord (G maj?), if you want Lydian flavour then you could treat it as the IV chord in the key of D major. You're next scale step to a major degree in this scale would be the A, so you could play the A major pent over the G chord. Or if you prefer the minor pent shape 1, just shift down a minor 3rd to Gb.

You could use that technique for the IV (Cmaj7?) chord as well. I'm assuming you're in the key of G major and not minor!

These are just suggestions m8. I tend you use this pentatonic substitution quite a lot now I have the hang of it.

+1 to ouchies - use the PD scale over V.
#7
Quote by icronic


The only thing I've done so far that kind of works is to have the rhythm hang on the IV chord for the entire solo, which does give the Lydian feel, but still isn't quite right either.


That's nice. R u playing a straight major? Cos to get even more Lydiany you could extend the chord to a maj9#11?

-9
-9
-9
-11
-12
-10

Like I say 'no guitar' so you'll have to check the intervals. = ]

Sorry, shift that shape down a tone - can't be bothered to change it now!
Last edited by mdc at May 12, 2008,
#8
Just sneak in those two notes.

play around the arppegios 1,3,5 of the chord.
stress the arppegios and play the other two notes as passing notes.

when you bend some of the notes while riffing from the penta...that's
what you're doing anyway. You're just not use to hitting those
notes on the actual fret.

You can bust a G lydian over Gmaj easily...espascailly if it's the I chord,
becuase the 7th will be in it's natural posistion.


-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-2-5-2--4-2---2-----------------------------------------
---------------5----5---2-5-2--4-2----2----------------
---------------------------------------5----5--3----------
Last edited by Ordinary at May 12, 2008,
#9
Quote by demonofthenight
Play any one of these over the major chords: Lydian mixolydian and ionian. And any of these over the minor chords: aeolian phrygian and dorian.

If you want a bluesy/rock feel, I wouldnt suggest playing modally. I would suggest playing pentatonics with the occasional accidental note.


A I-IV-V progression has a very strong resolution to the tonic. If you try to play modally over the IV and V chords, the ear is just going to hear the altered notes as they relate to the I chord. You won't actually be playing, say, D lydian or mixolydian (or whatever major mode you pick) over the V chord.

That progression isn't modal at all. If it's in G, use the G major scale.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#10
Quote by demonofthenight
Play any one of these over the major chords: Lydian mixolydian and ionian. And any of these over the minor chords: aeolian phrygian and dorian.

If you want a bluesy/rock feel, I wouldnt suggest playing modally. I would suggest playing pentatonics with the occasional accidental note.

Well, if you have a I-IV-V, you're not really going to play modally over the IV or V chord at all. They work to resolve to the tonic and have not been established as new tonal centers, so the perception will be that the "mode" you think you're playing is simply an alteration of the tonality of the tonic chord.

EDIT: Archeo wins the race on this one, damn.
#11
Quote by icronic
Right now I'm writing a rock/blues styled song with a fairly basic I-IV-V progression in G, but I want to break out of the box a little when it comes time for the solo.

I'd like to figure out a way to sneak a solo in that has a Lydian or perhaps a Phrygian feel, but I'm not really sure how I would go about doing it and making it sound good. Obviously I can't simply play G Phrygian or Lydian over that progression and have it sound correct.

The only thing I've done so far that kind of works is to have the rhythm hang on the IV chord for the entire solo, which does give the Lydian feel, but still isn't quite right either.

Anyway, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

As a note, my knowledge of the modes is primarily based on how they sound, I spent a lot of time practicing each mode with it's root E, while having the low E ringing open, so I understand the sound and feel of each, and I understand that the mode is dictated by the chords you're playing over, but from there I've never really been able to apply any of it.


do mean the typic blues I - IV - V where they are all dominant 7th chords???
#12
Quote by Archeo Avis
A I-IV-V progression has a very strong resolution to the tonic. If you try to play modally over the IV and V chords, the ear is just going to hear the altered notes as they relate to the I chord. You won't actually be playing, say, D lydian or mixolydian (or whatever major mode you pick) over the V chord.

That progression isn't modal at all. If it's in G, use the G major scale.

Quote by Mr Smiley, He is always smiling
Well, if you have a I-IV-V, you're not really going to play modally over the IV or V chord at all. They work to resolve to the tonic and have not been established as new tonal centers, so the perception will be that the "mode" you think you're playing is simply an alteration of the tonality of the tonic chord.

Although i totally agree with these posts and usually post similar myself, do you think he perhaps meant to play Lydian over the I or the V or Mixo over the IV to get some weird sounds?
Maybe....
#13
Quote by branny1982
Although i totally agree with these posts and usually post similar myself, do you think he perhaps meant to play Lydian over the I or the V or Mixo over the IV to get some weird sounds?
Maybe....

I don't know; he can certainly use notes from those modal scales, I was just letting him know (I'm sure Archeo was as well) that's it's not a modal progression/piece at all.
#15
Quote by branny1982
Very much so, i thought he might have discovered a magical way to incorporate accidentals without sounding..... accidental.
Was it satriani that said we only remember the last six or seven notes? Use a different accidental every six notes. And whats wrong with sounding ... accidental? I like sounding... accidental.
Quote by Archeo Avis
A I-IV-V progression has a very strong resolution to the tonic. If you try to play modally over the IV and V chords, the ear is just going to hear the altered notes as they relate to the I chord. You won't actually be playing, say, D lydian or mixolydian (or whatever major mode you pick) over the V chord.

That progression isn't modal at all. If it's in G, use the G major scale.
Do you mean the chords point to specific modes? Sure I agree to an extent. But regardless of which mode the chord points to, using a m7 over a major chord (without the seventh degree added) will sound mixolydian.
I've always thought the harmonic intervals of the modes define them, so using m7's more than M7 over major chords would mean mixolydian. Am I wrong?
Quote by branny1982
Although i totally agree with these posts and usually post similar myself, do you think he perhaps meant to play Lydian over the I or the V or Mixo over the IV to get some weird sounds?
Maybe....
Spot on. I dont like restricting myself to just 7 notes throughout the whole song.
#16
Quote by demonofthenight
Was it satriani that said we only remember the last six or seven notes? Use a different accidental every six notes.

I have seen that on one of his videos, if you look on youtube for a 4 part video lesson, he mentions it on there.
It is his theory on soloing using accidentals i think, it is nothing rock solid, but as a rule of thumb i think he was saying that if you start in a key and start to go out of it, you need to make sure you are back within it by7 notes or the ear will lose it!
i recommend somebody tried to find the video, because i may have majorly misunderstood him! (or mis-remembered it)

Quote by demon
And whats wrong with sounding ... accidental? I like sounding... accidental.

nothing, i wasn't saying there was
#17
Quote by branny1982
I have seen that on one of his videos, if you look on youtube for a 4 part video lesson, he mentions it on there.
It is his theory on soloing using accidentals i think, it is nothing rock solid, but as a rule of thumb i think he was saying that if you start in a key and start to go out of it, you need to make sure you are back within it by7 notes or the ear will lose it!
i recommend somebody tried to find the video, because i may have majorly misunderstood him! (or mis-remembered it)
I know this is gonna sound REALLY cliche, but... I hate being restricted in my improv.

I might use chord tones/pentatonics alot and barely use the other third in the tonality, but thats only preferance. I have my own ideas in my head about what to play, like recently I've found using a leading tone (M7) in minor tonality can have some awesome dissonance if you hit a third after it and not the root note.
#19
doesn't the notes you remember depend on how long ago they were played. I mean, the short term memory is said to consist of 7 +/- 2 items but it's also said to be 20 seconds long. I bet it depends on the persons musical experience, my guess would be around 7 items if the person knows much about music and time based if they don't. Just thinking out loud, or in type... you know what I mean.
#20
Do you mean the chords point to specific modes? Sure I agree to an extent. But regardless of which mode the chord points to, using a m7 over a major chord (without the seventh degree added) will sound mixolydian.
I've always thought the harmonic intervals of the modes define them, so using m7's more than M7 over major chords would mean mixolydian. Am I wrong?


There is nothing modal about this progression. The chords don't point to any modes. The notes you play will relate to the tonal center, not whatever chord you happen to be playing over. The tonal center doesn't change every time you play a chord.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#21
demonofthenight: I remember we talked about this a while back, but I still don't get your viewpoint on things such as this progression. You can think of that as a modal progression if you want, but it's not. The tonal center is established immediately with a I-IV-V and the entire motion of that progression leads back to the I. You seem to be treating it as a progression in which the tonal center changes with every chord, but if that happened we wouldn't need to bother with keys, and progressions would cease to be progressions. They'd just be a sequence of new tonic chords.

You can play any note you want over any chord you want, and so you're not restricted; it's not a modal progression in any way so I'm not sure why you're treating it as such.
#22
So are we talking about the typic blues... all dominant 7ths..... or the standard Major progression ?

for my 2 cents, I would say that with the standard Major progression, your pretty locked into the Major scale. (if you want to stick with "common" practice.)

If your talking about all Dominant 7ths the answer is slightly different.

either way I wouldnt think modally.
#23
Just to clarify what Demon and I were discussing, Here is the vid of satriani, at 1min20ish he mentions the "brain remembers 12 notes"-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCdZwASSKuk&feature=related

also, this interview mentions it-
http://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2006/0606_Joe_Satriani.php
Quote by Satch
But the brain can retain about 11 notes before when number 12 and 13 come by the brain starts to forget the first two. This is something that is just part of our human nature.
#24
Quote by branny1982
Just to clarify what Demon and I were discussing, Here is the vid of satriani, at 1min20ish he mentions the "brain remembers 12 notes"-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCdZwASSKuk&feature=related

also, this interview mentions it-
http://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2006/0606_Joe_Satriani.php


thats a good video. Notice he was able to be more free with his choices over the static dominant 7th, but when he actually played a progression (always with you..) he was like "sounds horrible there"..... Thats because with a progression your more "locked in" generally. Doesnt mean you can't go out at all, but in general practice.... your going to stick with the key.

Also notice that as he was playing those different scales, he was always justifying them based on their relationship to the chord.
#25
You mean play E whatever over E whatever
Last edited by Ordinary at May 13, 2008,
#26
There is nothing modal about this progression. The chords don't point to any modes. The notes you play will relate to the tonal center, not whatever chord you happen to be playing over. The tonal center doesn't change every time you play a chord.
Doesn't that make it an Ionian vamp?

You seem to be treating it as a progression in which the tonal center changes with every chord, but if that happened we wouldn't need to bother with keys, and progressions would cease to be progressions. They'd just be a sequence of new tonic chords.
No, he's treating it as a progression in which the chord changes with every chord.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#28
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Doesn't that make it an Ionian vamp?

It makes it a major progression unless you want to limit yourself. By implying that it's an Ionian vamp, you're talking about modal music, which means he's limited to the notes from the mode he is using. Calling it Ionian would be limiting in this way, so you'd likely want to use "major" instead.
Quote by Ænimus Prime
No, he's treating it as a progression in which the chord changes with every chord.

Well, no. Look back at his original post. He said that over the major chords you could use Lydian, Mixolydian or Ionian. Sure you can use notes from those scales, but he makes it sound as though these modes can be continuously shifting.
#29
Well, no. Look back at his original post. He said that over the major chords you could use Lydian, Mixolydian or Ionian. Sure you can use notes from those scales, but he makes it sound as though these modes can be continuously shifting.
And I agree with him.

It makes it a major progression unless you want to limit yourself. By implying that it's an Ionian vamp, you're talking about modal music, which means he's limited to the notes from the mode he is using. Calling it Ionian would be limiting in this way, so you'd likely want to use "major" instead
What notes would you use over this progression that aren't in the Ionian mode?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#30
Quote by Ænimus Prime
And I agree with him.

What notes would you use over this progression that aren't in the Ionian mode?


Well just over the V chord you can use (D7 in G)

Gminor pentatonic, G major pentatonic, G# Diminished, D Phrygian dominant, Ab lydian dominant.. etc. There are a lot of out notes you can use.
Last edited by ouchies at May 13, 2008,
#31
Quote by Ænimus Prime
And I agree with him.

About using the notes or the modes?
Quote by Ænimus Prime
What notes would you use over this progression that aren't in the Ionian mode?

Anything you want to. If I'm playing C-F-G and play any note other than C D E F G A B, I'm going out of the Ionian mode.
#32
Well just over the V chord you can use (D7 in G)

Gminor pentatonic, G major pentatonic, G# Diminished, D Phrygian dominant, Ab lydian dominant.. etc. There are a lot of out notes you can use.
Since you say you can use D Phrygian dominant, would you also say that you can use D mixolydian

About using the notes or the modes?
The modes.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#33
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Since you say you can use D Phrygian dominant, would you also say that you can use D mixolydian

The modes.

You can use the notes from the D Mixolydian scale; you can use anything you want, but I still fail to see how this is modal in any way. No sarcasm intended, maybe I'm missing something?
#34
The way I hear it, you can get an ionian sound over the I chord, a lydian sound over the IV, and mixo over the V. It's a subtle difference because they are very similar. With something like I ii iii V the change in texture is far more apparent as you move through Ionian, Dorian, Phryg and Mixo (if you remain diatonic).
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#35
Quote by Archeo Avis
The notes you play will relate to the tonal center, not whatever chord you happen to be playing over. The tonal center doesn't change every time you play a chord.
So regardless of what chord is being played a B will sound exactly the same over each and every diatonic chord is C major?
Try it over a CM, the next note will want to be a C. And over a Dm it will hold some dissonance. Over GM it will sound really consonant. You, archeo, need to learn about harmonic dissonance.
Quote by :-(
demonofthenight: I remember we talked about this a while back, but I still don't get your viewpoint on things such as this progression.
That notes sound very different over different chords (harmonic dissonance/consonance). And I exploit this fact. Yes I still take into account how it sounds melodically, but ideally no more or less than how it sounds harmonically.
Quote by :-(
The tonal center is established immediately with a I-IV-V and the entire motion of that progression leads back to the I.
Thats very true concerning the chords. In that progression the chord with the most pull is the I chord. But very wrong concerning the melody. The note with the strongest pull is the root of the chord playing, regardless of the chord before and after it. What would you honestly do with a completely non-diatonic progression?
Quote by branny1982
Just to clarify what Demon and I were discussing, Here is the vid of satriani, at 1min20ish he mentions the "brain remembers 12 notes"-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCdZ...feature=related

also, this interview mentions it-
http://www.musicplayers.com/feature...oe_Satriani.php
Yech, he makes it sound as if normal people cant listen to modulation without thinking something is sounding completely wrong. What if someone completely changes key? In his (satrianis) view every note played in that new key will sound off. And what about his own theories on pitch axis theories? He isnt contradicting himself is he?
Quote by :-(
Well, no. Look back at his original post. He said that over the major chords you could use Lydian, Mixolydian or Ionian. Sure you can use notes from those scales, but he makes it sound as though these modes can be continuously shifting.
Why cant they be, is there something wrong with shifting modes? Do you think normal people can listen to some modulation without having their ears bleed?
Quote by :-(
You can use the notes from the D Mixolydian scale; you can use anything you want, but I still fail to see how this is modal in any way. No sarcasm intended, maybe I'm missing something?
Its modal 'cause I say its gonna be modal, foo'. Why cant I play mixolydian over that IV chord? Why am I forced to only sound mixolydian over that V chord?

Actually, in practise, I dont even use modes or scales when I'm playing over simple progressions any more. I could use a m7 AND a #4 AND a 4 AND a M7 all over the same chord. Sure I wouldnt play them all at once, as they hold some dissonance. But 5 or 6 consonant pentatonic/chord tones after using a M7, I might use the m7.
Over complex progressions, though, I play with modes and scales and maybe even set shapes.
#36
You're using the scales that correspond to certain modes, yes, but the IV and V chords are NOT established as new tonal centers and therefore you're not actually playing modally. As for the "ears bleeding" comment, just cut the sarcastic crap and realize that you're not actually modulating with every new chord. The IV and V simply support the I, that's all.

As for your "I say it's modal", that doesn't make it modal. It's not modal at all, in fact, so you can call it anything you want and I still will not agree with you. I never said you couldn't play the SCALES of each mode: if you want to play Mixolydian over the IV, go ahead. But the tonal center never changes, so you're simply playing the notes of the modal scale and not the mode itself. You'd need to establish that as a new tonal center to actually be playing modally.

And I'd still love to know why my name has now become ":-(".
#37
Quote by :-C
You're using the scales that correspond to certain modes, yes, but the IV and V chords are NOT established as new tonal centers and therefore you're not actually playing modally. As for the "ears bleeding" comment, just cut the sarcastic crap and realize that you're not actually modulating with every new chord. The IV and V simply support the I, that's all.

As for your "I say it's modal", that doesn't make it modal. It's not modal at all, in fact, so you can call it anything you want and I still will not agree with you. I never said you couldn't play the SCALES of each mode: if you want to play Mixolydian over the IV, go ahead. But the tonal center never changes, so you're simply playing the notes of the modal scale and not the mode itself. You'd need to establish that as a new tonal center to actually be playing modally
Define EXACTLY what you mean by playing modally. By my definition, its using and thinking in modes.
Quote by :-C
And I'd still love to know why my name has now become ":-("
Because I'm immature and bored, have a problem with that?
#38
Quote by demonofthenight
Define EXACTLY what you mean by playing modally. By my definition, its using and thinking in modes.

Well, very simply put, playing modally means playing in a mode, which to me means emphasizing the unique intervals of each mode. To be playing modally, I say you need a combination of modal harmony and a modal scale. For example, take Dm7 G7 - it's often considered the quintessential D Dorian vamp, but you could play any number of things over this; for example, D minor blues will work just fine. However, when you play the D Dorian scale over this, you've established the mode. The tonal center has been established as D both by the Dm7 and the fact that G7 pulls back to D. You're putting the D Dorian scale over this harmony, which in turn produces the D Dorian mode because this is emphasizing the unique intervals of Dorian.

And I don't have a problem with it, it just struck me as odd.
#39
Quote by D-:
Well, very simply put, playing modally means playing in a mode, which to me means emphasizing the unique intervals of each mode. To be playing modally, I say you need a combination of modal harmony and a modal scale. For example, take Dm7 G7 - it's often considered the quintessential D Dorian vamp, but you could play any number of things over this; for example, D minor blues will work just fine. However, when you play the D Dorian scale over this, you've established the mode. The tonal center has been established as D both by the Dm7 and the fact that G7 pulls back to D. You're putting the D Dorian scale over this harmony, which in turn produces the D Dorian mode because this is emphasizing the unique intervals of Dorian.
Which intervals? Intervals can refer to a number of things, normally either melodic intervals or harmonic intervals. Melodic intervals are the intervals in between notes of a melody and harmonic intervals being the intervals that relate from a melody note to the chords. IE B over D minor makes a harmonic intervals of Major sixth.

If you mean the later, than how can you play modally with only one mode and many different chords?
If you mean the former, how does D dorian differ from C major? Wouldnt that progression just be a progression that doesnt resolve to C major?
Page 1 of 2