#3
Quote by mjkshreds
How do you use modes? In rock or metal is it worth knowing about them in the way you play


that is a big question. Its worth learning about them IF you have enough theory knowledge. There are things you should understand before looking into modes.

Most people get into them way to early, and often have a hard time understanding how to apply them.

where are you at right now with your theory knowledge ??
#4
It's definitely worth knowing; they help you move your position up and down the fretboard. Each mode has a characteristic sound, and begins on one of the notes in a scale (Ionian begins on the first note, Dorian begins on the second, Phrygian on the third, etc.) and play through each note in its relative Ionian scale (D Dorian, for example, has all the same notes as C Ionian, or C Major).

For a comprehensive lesson, check out some of the pages under UG's theory lessons.
Gunpowder: FUCKING ROCKS!!!
Quote by The Madcap
[witty set-up]
Gunpowder FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!

Quote by Kensai

Gunpowder you fucking rock!!

Quote by Dirge Humani
Now I can say, with sufficient certainly, that you, Gunpowder...

FUCK ROCKS!
#6
Quote by Gunpowder
It's definitely worth knowing; they help you move your position up and down the fretboard. Each mode has a characteristic sound, and begins on one of the notes in a scale (Ionian begins on the first note, Dorian begins on the second, Phrygian on the third, etc.) and play through each note in its relative Ionian scale (D Dorian, for example, has all the same notes as C Ionian, or C Major).

For a comprehensive lesson, check out some of the pages under UG's theory lessons.


^ very true...

This is a very good answer..Its very basic and it wraps things up perfectly.
If *Gunpowder* were to get in depth you could be here for days.

I have the *Guitar Grimoire* scales and modes*..That thing is great..
It will teach you alot. It has tables that shows you what modes fit with
what keys and all. It even shows you what modes to substitute for
other scales. I went from having trouble finishing songs because I didn't
have a good idea where to go...to having trouble finishing songs because
i had too many options...
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
#7
It's definitely worth knowing; they help you move your position up and down the fretboard.


No, they don't. Modes are not positions.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
Learn about them and you'll be able to see how they're useful. Just something to keep in mind: The harmony determines the mode, not what you play over it.
#9
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, they don't. Modes are not positions.


For the sake of moving your hands up and down the fretboard while remaining in key...yes, they do.

I'm not going to go into detail and explain that a parallel Dorian has a flat third and flat seventh, or anything. For all intents and purposes, when just starting out with modes (or at least, when I started out with them), I saw them all as different configurations of playing the same scale, i.e., separate positions to play the same key up and down the fretboard. If he wants to go into more detail and learn mode construction, he can go more in-depth and do that.,

Stop being a holier-than-thou elitist.
Gunpowder: FUCKING ROCKS!!!
Quote by The Madcap
[witty set-up]
Gunpowder FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!

Quote by Kensai

Gunpowder you fucking rock!!

Quote by Dirge Humani
Now I can say, with sufficient certainly, that you, Gunpowder...

FUCK ROCKS!
#10
Quote by Gunpowder
For the sake of moving your hands up and down the fretboard while remaining in key...yes, they do.

I'm not going to go into detail and explain that a parallel Dorian has a flat third and flat seventh, or anything. For all intents and purposes, when just starting out with modes (or at least, when I started out with them), I saw them all as different configurations of playing the same scale, i.e., separate positions to play the same key up and down the fretboard. If he wants to go into more detail and learn mode construction, he can go more in-depth and do that.,

Stop being a holier-than-thou elitist.

I think what he's saying is that simply learning the modes as re-orderings of specific scales can be very dangerous in terms of learning. By simply learning positions or even just viewing modes as scales that can be used no matter what the context, a lot of people misunderstand the modes completely.

There's no need to get defensive and begin telling him he's an elitist, by the way.
#11
Quote by :-D
I think what he's saying is that simply learning the modes as re-orderings of specific scales can be very dangerous in terms of learning. By simply learning positions or even just viewing modes as scales that can be used no matter what the context, a lot of people misunderstand the modes completely.

There's no need to get defensive and begin telling him he's an elitist, by the way.


Which, I think, is fine to do for a casual understanding of modes; if you want to learn more than that, and how they can applied, you need to go deeper than that.

And, I wasn't so much being offensive, than I was being annoyed. I hate it when people say "no that's wrong" and offer no explanation as to why. I consider that elitism.
Gunpowder: FUCKING ROCKS!!!
Quote by The Madcap
[witty set-up]
Gunpowder FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!

Quote by Kensai

Gunpowder you fucking rock!!

Quote by Dirge Humani
Now I can say, with sufficient certainly, that you, Gunpowder...

FUCK ROCKS!
#12
Quote by Gunpowder
Which, I think, is fine to do for a casual understanding of modes; if you want to learn more than that, and how they can applied, you need to go deeper than that.

And, I wasn't so much being offensive, than I was being annoyed. I hate it when people say "no that's wrong" and offer no explanation as to why. I consider that elitism.

My issue with this is that a "casual understanding" really means a misunderstanding; honestly, if you don't know how modes are applied then you don't understand modes. The harmonic context and intervals are more important than anything.

Fair enough on the elitism part, but I don't think he meant anything by it.
#13
The thing is that there isn't really different degrees of understanding the concept of modes. They really are more than just the major scale starting on a different note and to simplify them down to that is incorrect. You can use the D dorian SCALE over a C major progression, but by no means are you playing D dorian. I get what you're saying about using them as different positions, but in that case, that's all they are: positions.
#14
Quote by :-D
My issue with this is that a "casual understanding" really means a misunderstanding; honestly, if you don't know how modes are applied then you don't understand modes. The harmonic context and intervals are more important than anything.

Fair enough on the elitism part, but I don't think he meant anything by it.


Well, when I first started to learn modes, I had only a casual understanding of their positions relative to the fretboard and their relative Ionian, before I decided to learn more of the theory behind them and how they can be applied. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but I think it's important to understand their use as scales before you learn their relations with one another, if you understand my meaning.

I'm sure he didn't, but I'm in a bit of a sour mood tonight

But this really isn't worth arguing about; at any rate, it's not helping the TS with his question.
Gunpowder: FUCKING ROCKS!!!
Quote by The Madcap
[witty set-up]
Gunpowder FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!

Quote by Kensai

Gunpowder you fucking rock!!

Quote by Dirge Humani
Now I can say, with sufficient certainly, that you, Gunpowder...

FUCK ROCKS!
#15
Quote by Gunpowder
Well, when I first started to learn modes, I had only a casual understanding of their positions relative to the fretboard and their relative Ionian, before I decided to learn more of the theory behind them and how they can be applied. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but I think it's important to understand their use as scales before you learn their relations with one another, if you understand my meaning.

I'm sure he didn't, but I'm in a bit of a sour mood tonight

But this really isn't worth arguing about; at any rate, it's not helping the TS with his question.


I dont think that a player has to know what a mode is for at all to learn it..
I think that even if they dont understand the theory behind it..its still good
to learn their positions up and down the neck. Then when they get
into studying the use of them..they will already know where they are and how
to move around the neck with them...

It's kind of like being new at guitar...all you do is learn to play it...You learn
repairs later ..It wouldnt help much at all if you made a person learn to
change strings..set intonations and the truss rod before they learned a single
note.

I know this is going to be very contraversial..but you dont have to know what
a mode is used for in the least bit..to learn one. Some players have great knowlege
when it comes to theory..but dont beat a new player with a ruler for trying to
crawl before they walk...learn modes.you can always learn how to compose with
them later..
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
#16
^I'd say it's much more beneficial to actually learn the theory behind them first. That way you know why certain things are going on. Application is everything, so you shouldn't just blindly adhere to patterns without understanding why you're doing what you're doing.
#17
Quote by :-D
^I'd say it's much more beneficial to actually learn the theory behind them first. That way you know why certain things are going on. Application is everything, so you shouldn't just blindly adhere to patterns without understanding why you're doing what you're doing.


I understand what youre saying...but my point is this...

Most of us that play Pentatonic scales learned them from diagrams..
How many players that learned the Pentatonic scale knew how to
use it to compose songs when they learned it?...not many.

Most of use learned the boxes..then learned how to use them
later...

Sure we knew what it was..by definition...but I was referring to using
scales and modes for composition. I dont think its necessary to know
how to use them to compose while you are learning the positions..
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
#18
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
Most of use learned the boxes..then learned how to use them later...

And then after this, we realized that learning the actual scales is much more important than learning the positions. Surely you've at least reached that conclusion.
#19
^Those people would have better off understanding why the pentatonic scale works the way it does. Not that it necessarily worked out badly, but learning the why alongside the how is generally better than looking at a diagram.
#20
Quote by :-D
And then after this, we realized that learning the actual scales is much more important than learning the positions. Surely you've at least reached that conclusion.


I think u missed my point..lol..

my point is that ..you dont have to know what a mode is used for when you
learn it..meaning that you dont have to know how to compose with it..

A person can learn the C-Ionian mode. They will obviously have an idea of
what degrees are in the mode when they learn it..but they dont have to know
what chord progressions the C-Ionian mode fit into...they can learn that later..

Quote by Washburnd Fretz
I dont think that a player has to know what a mode is for at all to learn it..
The C-ionian mode is used for these progressions
and or changeovers...they dont need to know all that to learn it..
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
Last edited by Washburnd Fretz at May 13, 2008,
#22
Can, but would still be better off learning it together.

EDIT: Lulz, at Washburnd.
Last edited by grampastumpy at May 13, 2008,
#23
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
I think u missed my point..lol..

my point is that ..you dont have to know what a mode is used for when you
learn it..meaning that you dont have to know how to compose with it..

A person can learn the C-Ionian mode. They will obviously have an idea of
what degrees are in the mode when they learn it..but they dont have to know
what chord progressions the C-Ionian mode fit into...they can learn that later..

No, I understood your point. You missed mine entirely.

I'm not saying that you have to know what it is to use it. I wouldn't argue that at all. But if you want to write music, arrange music or even improvise outside of one or two scale positions, you sure as hell should learn the theory behind what you're doing.
#24
I think that this is really just a point that we're not going to agree on - the best way to go about learning something.

So let's just agree that there are different ways to do things, and whichever way works best for you is cool.

Gunpowder: FUCKING ROCKS!!!
Quote by The Madcap
[witty set-up]
Gunpowder FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!

Quote by Kensai

Gunpowder you fucking rock!!

Quote by Dirge Humani
Now I can say, with sufficient certainly, that you, Gunpowder...

FUCK ROCKS!
#25
Quote by :-D
No, I understood your point. You missed mine entirely.

I'm not saying that you have to know what it is to use it. I wouldn't argue that at all. But if you want to write music, arrange music or even improvise outside of one or two scale positions, you sure as hell should learn the theory behind what you're doing.


Yeah..thats true..but we are talking about a person that is learning right?
What happened to starting out with the basics?
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
#26
Quote by Gunpowder
I think that this is really just a point that we're not going to agree on - the best way to go about learning something.

So let's just agree that there are different ways to do things, and whichever way works best for you is cool.


There's no need to call this off, I'm just interested in learning why he thinks the way he does. No harm done.
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
Yeah..thats true..but we are talking about a person that is learning right?
What happened to starting out with the basics?

The "basics" would be learning the major scale. This includes the theory behind it. A lot of people start with learning the pentatonic scales, and this is not a problem; I'd even recommend it. But as part of this basic learning you really should learn the theory behind the scales you're using. I don't see why you'd leave this out of your basic learning.
#27
Quote by :-D
There's no need to call this off, I'm just interested in learning why he thinks the way he does. No harm done.


I think the same way as him - if you see the positions as the exterior, and the theory behind it as the interior; it's easier to visualize the exterior, is it's more evident when you just look at something, and gives a framework for learning that which is inside of it.

If that makes any sense at all.
Gunpowder: FUCKING ROCKS!!!
Quote by The Madcap
[witty set-up]
Gunpowder FUCKING ROCKS!!!!!

Quote by Kensai

Gunpowder you fucking rock!!

Quote by Dirge Humani
Now I can say, with sufficient certainly, that you, Gunpowder...

FUCK ROCKS!
#28
Quote by :-D
There's no need to call this off, I'm just interested in learning why he thinks the way he does. No harm done.


I just refer to using modes to compose music as intermediate/advanced..

Learning the modes and how they are built are what i call basic. I just
didnt think that a person with basic knowledge of modes needs to know
how to use them.
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett
#29
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
I just refer to using modes to compose music as intermediate/advanced..

Learning the modes and how they are built are what i call basic. I just
didnt think that a person with basic knowledge of modes needs to know
how to use them.

I get what you and Gunpowder are saying, obviously I don't see this the same way but it's all good. I've offered my two cents, you've done the same, maybe it'll help the TS out.
#30
Quote by Washburnd Fretz
I just refer to using modes to compose music as intermediate/advanced..

Learning the modes and how they are built are what i call basic. I just
didnt think that a person with basic knowledge of modes needs to know
how to use them.
The way you're thinking of modes(just different positions of a major scale...or maybe that was Gunpowder...) is really just as positions and is a very different concept from what modes are. While I suppose there are some finer points, the entire concept of modes totally goes beyond just different positions.

Eh, done for the night.
#31
Quote by Gunpowder
For the sake of moving your hands up and down the fretboard while remaining in key...yes, they do.

I'm not going to go into detail and explain that a parallel Dorian has a flat third and flat seventh, or anything. For all intents and purposes, when just starting out with modes (or at least, when I started out with them), I saw them all as different configurations of playing the same scale, i.e., separate positions to play the same key up and down the fretboard. If he wants to go into more detail and learn mode construction, he can go more in-depth and do that.,

Stop being a holier-than-thou elitist.


Modes have absolutely nothing to do with "moving your hands up and down the fretboard". Nothing. You're misleading him into thinking that, by switching box shapes, he is somehow playing modally.

I saw them all as different configurations of playing the same scale, i.e., separate positions to play the same key up and down the fretboard.


That's not what they are. That's not even in the ballpark. What you said was blatantly wrong, and you need to stop trying to rationalize it.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#32
Quote by :-D
There's no need to call this off, I'm just interested in learning why he thinks the way he does. No harm done.

The "basics" would be learning the major scale. This includes the theory behind it. A lot of people start with learning the pentatonic scales, and this is not a problem; I'd even recommend it. But as part of this basic learning you really should learn the theory behind the scales you're using. I don't see why you'd leave this out of your basic learning.


in the australian grading system (i do ANZCA not AMEB) the basics are the Major Scale and its theory. grade 2 introduces the pentatonics.
Quote by coolstoryangus
Pffffffft schematics


Although i guess the OP will have to get used to reading them if he's going to buy a bugera..
Quote by gregs1020


along with fire escape routes...