Poll: Allow these clothes
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View poll results: Allow these clothes
Yes
79 64%
Nope
43 35%
Voters: 123.
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#1
In Ireland at the moment there is much debate over whether or not people should be allowed to wear religious clothing in schools (specifically the Muslim hijab)
One thing to bear in mind here is that almost all schools in Ireland have compulsory uniforms.
Obviously visible Christian etc symbol are not allowed either. This isn't just discrimination against Muslims.

They claim that it is part of their religion and they have the right to wear it, they shouldn't have to put their beliefs aside to go to school and it; not as bad as makeup etc.

My own opinion would be that they should not. Ireland is a modern liberal democracy and the entire point of uniforms is to make sure every child looks the same and therefore is not singled out by their religion, economic background etc.
Plus I've a close friend who is a Muslim and none of his sisters ever felt the need to wear a hijab in school.
Furthermore I reckon that it doesn't stop them practicing their religion. Besides, this is about little kids under 12 in the main, they don't have a religion, their parents do.

Of course I'm open to persuasion.
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-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
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Last edited by Ur all $h1t at May 19, 2008,
#2
To deny would be to deny their freedom of speech.

It pissed me off so much when I heard that Shirach (sp?) banned it, even though the French don't tend to have school uniform.

EDIT: I mean, sure, wearing a Christian Cross means nothing to some people on the neck, but if it genuinely means something, and they feel they got something strong behind it, then let them.
#4
tbh im torn between both sides - i think there should be a degree of freedom, but personally i think that the hijap is quite degrading to women, that said some like it and freely choose to wear it.
#5
Quote by Craigo
To deny would be to deny their freedom of speech.

Last time I checked that doesn't apply in schools.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#6
If they've got school uniforms they should stick to them. Maybe they could make some slight modifications like muslim women covering their faces but don't ignore it entirely.
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#9
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Last time I checked that doesn't apply in schools.

Last time I checked, freedom of speech didn't exist. We still say it relevitively though.

Or, to rephrase myself;

To deny their clothing of that religion is to deny religious expression.

However; it must be the child's choice, not the parents.
#10
Quote by Craigo
To deny would be to deny their freedom of speech.

It pissed me off so much when I heard that Shirach (sp?) banned it, even though the French don't tend to have school uniform.

EDIT: I mean, sure, wearing a Christian Cross means nothing to some people on the neck, but if it genuinely means something, and they feel they got something strong behind it, then let them.


How has wearing something got anything to do with speech? Noones telling them to stop practising Islam, they should just start adhering to the school uniform code.
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#11
they should wear the uniform provided tbh, i dont have any sympathy for muslim dress, i find veils oppressive and a barrier between communication which there would be alot of between teacher to pupil. so i agree with no religious dress in school
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#12
there is not a single chance you could go to any of these Muslim countries to live and get away with sending your kid to school in anything that resembles typical western dress, so if the Muslims want to come here why don't they have to fit into our society.
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#13
I think banning religious clothing is a stupid thing.

If it's a religion, you're meant to follow it. If it's not your religion, you're meant to respect it.
#14
Quote by Rankles
How has wearing something got anything to do with speech? Noones telling them to stop practising Islam, they should just start adhering to the school uniform code.

Many see uniform as symbolism of the working state they should be in as they enter school. How should that succumb over the symbolism of their religion which they feel strongly about?

However, it shouldn't be over elaborate and should fit in snuggly with uniform, don't get me wrong on that. Head wear isn't hurting anyone either, so why deny it?
#15
They should wear the school uniform UNDER their hijab. Problem solved. *dusts hands*
#16
School is a place of learning not a place of showing off your religious values, no one should be allowed to show these in school it just promotes differences in ethnic groups.
#17
Is it not the same as banning football colours in schools?

It causes friction. There are dumb asses in this world who see Islam and that's enough for them to jump on the hate wagon, just like Rangers/Celtic (example close to home, I went to Catholic school)
#18
Quote by Craigo
Many see uniform as symbolism of the working state they should be in as they enter school. How should that succumb over the symbolism of their religion which they feel strongly about?

However, it shouldn't be over elaborate and should fit in snuggly with uniform, don't get me wrong on that. Head wear isn't hurting anyone either, so why deny it?

The whole point of a uniform is to ensure that no-one is singled out, so yes, it does hurt someone.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#20
The school has every right to insist the kids follow the uniform rules. The parents have every right to send their kids to a Muslim school if they want this that badly.
#21
Everything we do in this world is essentially moderated. Sure, we can have freedom of speech, but you can't shout insults at 4 in the morning without being arrested....

And I believe that no-one should be treated differently due to religion. This works both ways. No discrimination, no benifits.

If there was no uniform and everyone could wear what they want, then it should be allowed. Otherwise no.
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#22
This is the biggest problem with religion these days. Not the religions themselves, but that they won't stop arguing with each other.

Yes, children should be allowed to wear any religious articles they feel like.
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#23
Quote by Ur all $h1t
The whole point of a uniform is to ensure that no-one is singled out, so yes, it does hurt someone.

That's all good and dandy, but if a child wants to show their religion, why not? It's not exactly going to start off fashion contests which schools wish to avoid...
#24
Same opinion as TS. Religion should stay outside schools and public institutions, such as the Parliament and govermenental offices. It's not like we're telling them to stop practicing, but simply to put religious matters aside when it comes to education.

(Sorry, it's hard for me to argue in english)
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#25
You're not allowed to have one rule for some and another for others.
Either ban them entirely or let everyone express their "religion" in their own ways.

Me, personally I'd ban any expression of religion in school that goes against uniform codes. That includes veils and jewellery and any item of clothing that opposes school uniform rules. They are there for a reason, not to be flaunted just because you're different.
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#27
Should be banned. Obviously it creates friction due to idiots. And it singles them out in a way that school uniform is designed to prevent.

And also its been pointed out that children identify with peoples faces a lot or something a long those lines and so covering up the face is bad for child development... can't remember exactly how that went but it was main arguement for banning the training teacher from wearing a hijab or something.
#29
Quote by Craigo
That's all good and dandy, but if a child wants to show their religion, why not? It's not exactly going to start off fashion contests which schools wish to avoid...

Because it singles them out. Usually their parents are the ones who really want it. It inhibits them from integrating with the other children which is as important a part of school as anything.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#30
Quote by StonaLemons
Should be banned. Obviously it creates friction due to idiots. And it singles them out in a way that school uniform is designed to prevent.

And also its been pointed out that children identify with peoples faces a lot or something a long those lines and so covering up the face is bad for child development... can't remember exactly how that went but it was main arguement for banning the training teacher from wearing a hijab or something.

Your second point is correct but invalid. Secondary school kids aren't going to be affected.
#31
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Because it singles them out. Usually their parents are the ones who really want it. It inhibits them from integrating with the other children which is as important a part of school as anything.

Like I said earlier, child's decision, not parents. I know this is hard to monitor though...
#32
Quote by Craigo
Like I said earlier, child's decision, not parents. I know this is hard to monitor though...

Impossible to monitor.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#33
Quite frankly it just irritates me when a cross-wearing teacher tells me I can't have a Pentagram on my shirt.
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#34
Quote by Td_Nights
Quite frankly it just irritates me when a cross-wearing teacher tells me I can't have a Pentagram on my shirt.

I thought you said cross dressing.

You see, that's not allowed at my school. That's blatant sexism.
#35
Quote by Ur all $h1t


Ireland is a modern liberal democracy and the entire point of uniforms is to make sure every child looks the same .

why would they want everyone to look the same sounds pretty conservative to me
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#36
If there's a set uniform in the school, then no.
If there's no uniform, then yes.
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#37
Quote by reedplaysgeetar
why would they want everyone to look the same sounds pretty conservative to me

Many reasons.
1) We know how cruel little kids can be and how little it takes for one kid to be singled out so this prevents that stuff (eg. Your clothes are cheap, your headscarf is funny looking, why do you wear that stupid skull cap)
2) It prevents a fashion contest among the kids and eases expense on parents.
3) It promotes a sense of collective identity
4) It makes students easily identifiable.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#38
Yup, I don't feel people expressing their beliefs harms others.

Naturally in some parts of Northern Ireland, the Catholic v Protestant war it may be benifitical for such items to be discouraged to avoid violence but in general there is nothing wrong with it.
#39
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Many reasons.
1) We know how cruel little kids can be and how little it takes for one kid to be singled out so this prevents that stuff (eg. Your clothes are cheap, your headscarf is funny looking, why do you wear that stupid skull cap)
2) It prevents a fashion contest among the kids and eases expense on parents.
3) It promotes a sense of collective identity
4) It makes students easily identifiable.

how old are you because those really dont sound like liberal things at all and collective identity isnt really part of a capitalist democracy because that sounds more like socialism and socialism/communism are the oppposite of capitalism/democracy
Quote by HaKattack
Woman tone, eh?

Set treble to PUT THE TOILET SEAT DOWN WHEN YOU'RE DONE
Mids to YOU'RE DRIVING TOO FAST
Bass to WHAT DO YOU MEAN, "MAKE ME A SANDWICH"?
Gain to NOT TONIGHT, I HAVE A HEADACHE.

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#40
i dont see a problem with allowing them to wear it.


Quote by Ur all $h1t
Many reasons.
1) We know how cruel little kids can be and how little it takes for one kid to be singled out so this prevents that stuff (eg. Your clothes are cheap, your headscarf is funny looking, why do you wear that stupid skull cap)
2) It prevents a fashion contest among the kids and eases expense on parents.



from going to a school that didnt have uniforms, i can tell you that i never witnessed either of those problems. sure some people had nicer clothes than others, but people rarely, if ever, made fun of kids for wearing certain clothing.
Last edited by daytripper75 at May 19, 2008,
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