#1
Ive been trying to do this for a while now, learning a scale up and down the entire fretboard fluently for improv, and im starting to wonder if its even possible. I learned all the cages on the A Blues scale but then i had trouble putting them together, and its not as fluent as id like it to be. Unfortunately im a slow learner, but when i get something i dont forget it. Any tips? For the passed two hours ive tried learning the patterns across the fretboard as well. It turns out now i can play the entire scale 2 different ways (across and up and down), but im stuck in those two 'fixed' ways of how i learned them. Have you ever learned an entire scale(s) fluently enough to memorize all the positions? How did you do it and how long did it take you? Thanks for any help
Quote by gu1t4rh3r0
One of my friends said to the principle once,
"NO! The voices tell me not to talk to you!" *Runs away on all fours*
The principle eventually caught up to him and gave him a drug test.
#2
Yes, learn theory. You sound like you're learning shapes instead of scales. The theory sticky at the top of this forum would be a good start.
#3
start learning certain notes in different modes for connecters, you know if your in A key learn where all the A's are then connect your modes with certain notes you all ready know, and time will help even more.
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#5
i take it you dont know theory, modes are a certain scales. lets say in A blues, on the top E string its at the fifth note, a different mode would be at the 12 note on the E string, its E key

really start learning modes rather then the whole scale of a certain key

here are some modes in the major scale Ionian,Dorian,Locrian Aeolian,Phrygian, Lydian,Mixilydian
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#6
Quote by higherworlds
i take it you dont know theory, modes are a certain scales. lets say in A blues, on the top E string its at the fifth note, a different mode would be at the 12 note on the E string, its E key

really start learning modes rather then the whole scale of a certain key

here are some modes in the major scale Ionian,Dorian,Locrian Aeolian,Phrygian, Lydian,Mixilydian


Yes, I do know theory. Look around for my posts and you'll see that I do. And if you're playing in the harmonic context of A (where A is your tonal center) and play something beginning on E, you're not playing a different mode at all. The tonal center does not suggest you're playing a mode in E.

That's the reason I questioned you; because thinking you're changing modes just based on where you begin a phrase is a piss-poor approach to scale theory. You should list the modes in the correct order as well.
#7
modes are a different sections in the whole scale
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#8
Quote by :-D
^What do you mean "connect your modes"?


If you learn where every root note is, and you know the interval relationships between the root and each note in the scale, then you can pick the patterns on the fly.

I went the other way - learning the different boxes and then linking them together. The best way to do this is to learn two adjacent boxes, and the work on getting comfortable moving between them - effectively expanding your box to cover 7 or 8 frets instead of 4. Once you've done that, add in the next adjacent box. It all takes time, so don't try and rush it - if it's not coming to you straight away just keep chipping away at the stone, and it will slowly come together.

Bonus points if you can spot the two Aerosmith references in my last sentence
#9
i was talking to the other guy,
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#10
Quote by elgalad
If you learn where every root note is, and you know the interval relationships between the root and each note in the scale, then you can pick the patterns on the fly.

I went the other way - learning the different boxes and then linking them together. The best way to do this is to learn two adjacent boxes, and the work on getting comfortable moving between them - effectively expanding your box to cover 7 or 8 frets instead of 4. Once you've done that, add in the next adjacent box. It all takes time, so don't try and rush it - if it's not coming to you straight away just keep chipping away at the stone, and it will slowly come together.

Bonus points if you can spot the two Aerosmith references in my last sentence

What are you talking about "different root notes"? If you're playing in C major for example, C is your root note. That's it.
Quote by higherworlds
modes are a different sections in the whole scale

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.
#11
how can you not know modes but your learning root notes and whole scales
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#12
Quote by higherworlds
how can you not know modes but your learning root notes and whole scales

I know modal and scale theory. I know everything you're talking about, I only questioned you because your approach didn't make sense to me. Do not think for one second that I don't know what I'm talking about.
#13
Quote by :-D
What are you talking about "different root notes"? If you're playing in C major for example, C is your root note. That's it.


Perhaps you should spend less time attacking people who are trying to help you?

Ok, so lets say you're playing in C. How many times does the C note (and all it's octaves) occur over the neck? Learn where all of those Cs are, and you can build the scales out from that very quickly by knowing the intervals that compose the scales you're using.

Should be easy for someone with such extensive theory knowledge
#14
I read up on scale formulas. Took me about an hour with memorisation, and through practice I can play any scale anywhere I want, and know what I'm playing.
#15
im not talking to you :.D, i know you know music theory
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#16
Quote by elgalad
Ok, so lets say you're playing in C. How many times does the C note (and all it's octaves) occur over the neck? Learn where all of those Cs are, and you can build the scales out from that very quickly by knowing the intervals that compose the scales you're using.

First of all, I do not need "help" with this. I understand this material well. What I was saying was that people interpret different "root notes" as playing different scales and modes even when the tonal center does not suggest this. I agree with you that learning the intervals is much better than linking box patterns together.
#17
Quote by higherworlds
im not talking to you :.D, i know you know music theory


You mean me?

I take it by "connecting your modes" then that you mean learning a box pattern for each mode of a given major scale, and the placing them next to each other on the fretboard? That's really just learning all the possible boxes for the major scale, so I don't see how it would help.

Not arguing with you - perhaps you could explain it?
#18
think learning both the boxes modes and interval is good the more you learn the more you can start putting good riffs and solos together
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#19
Quote by :-D
First of all, I do not need "help" with this. I understand this material well. What I was saying was that people interpret different "root notes" as playing different scales and modes even when the tonal center does not suggest this. I agree with you that learning the intervals is much better than linking box patterns together.


Fair enough - I should have said 'all the different positions of the root note'
#20
higherworlds: If you know how to play the major scale in each key, you know all the modes of the major scale because the harmonic context will determine the mode. Learning the box shape for each mode is unnecessary.
#21
Im done, knowbody know who im talking to.
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#22
Quote by :-D
higherworlds: If you know how to play the major scale in each key, you know all the modes of the major scale because the harmonic context will determine the mode. Learning the box shape for each mode is unnecessary.


That's true, but I approach it from a slightly different angle (more jazz-oriented), where I don't think of it as being a different major scale per se, but rather an altered major or minor scale. So I would think of A Dorian as being A Aeolian with a natural 6th. So the pattern would technically be G major pattern, but I'm thinking of it as an altered A minor pattern. Seems more complicated, but it makes more sense in a jazz/blues improvisation context.

We're getting away from the OP here though. I've found that I memorize scales easier by using them to improvise, rather than just running up and down scales for hours on end. It makes me really think about where I'm going next and where the notes are, rather than just leaving it to muscle memory to pick the adjacent note in the scale.
Last edited by elgalad at May 22, 2008,
#23
lol, what every the root note is thats your key, you justt move the major scale where ever the key is way is this so hard
Gear

Standard Epiphone LP W/Dimarzio Super 2's
1973 Ampeg VT-22

Fulltone Clyde
Ernie Ball VP Jr
Boss tu-2
Boss sd-1
Ehx Little Big Muff
Fulltone Ultimate Octave
Boss eq-7
Ehx Memory Man
Digitech Delay X-series
Ehx Holy Grail
#24
Quote by higherworlds
lol, what every the root note is thats your key, you justt move the major scale where ever the key is way is this so hard

Yes. If you're in the key of B major, for example, B is your root. But if you're playing in B minor and play a run beginning on C#, you're still playing B major and not C# Dorian.

elgalad: That way of thinking is useful; I'm just making sure you're not thinking you're actually playing different modes, that's all.
#25
The first thing I did was learn all of the neatural note (all of the white keys
on the piano). Bascailly the key of C.
You can slide the C scale shape like a slide ruler up and down the
neck to shift pitch to change keys....as you would do with a bar chord.

I'm not really sure what you mean by across or how you're actaully doing it.
The pattern I see or use cross each other diagnolly and repeat itself
again and again in verious position of the fretboard.

Example, if you look at a arppegio diagram of a chord you'll notice
it too repeat itself.
Bascailly what you'll see is the chord in open position and bar chord posistion.
I practice doing my scales the same way. In open and bar

The open and bar positioning cross each other diagnolly

A diagram in pentatonic so you'll see it clearer.
The Bar chord posistion is on the bottom
The Open position is on top.

If i remove 8 from B string, 7 from G, 7 from D.
You'll bascailly see on open G chord shape ...slided as the C chord.

everything gets shifted 1 fret at the little B and E string...thats all.

-------5---------------------(c)------
-------5----------------------8------
------(C)--------------7-------------
-------5---------------7-------------
-------5---------------7-------------
-------5--------------------(C)------

now the extension...diagnol cross or X...See the Bar on top to the right ?
Notice the 3rd or E @ 9th fret D string

If I remove the 10 from top and bottom E and the B string.
Bascailly what you'll get is Fmaj slide to the 8th fret as Cmaj bar chord

------5----------------------8--------------10---
------5----------------------G--------------10---
------5--------------7----------------E----------
------5--------------7---------------------(C)---
------5--------------7----------------------10--
------5---------------------(C)-------------10--

if i bar my index finger at the 7th fret it'll be the same as open positon
at the nut. The same as plaing a 7 string guitar.
Start at the E note A string 7th fret.
Everthing got sholved down one string.

If i bar my index at the 5th fret...and start from the A note
it's like everything got sholved up one string.
Last edited by Ordinary at May 22, 2008,
#26
Quote by :-D
Do not think for one second that I don't know what I'm talking about.


You don't need to get so defensive, it's a conversation about modes...did someone get bullied in high school?
#27
Quote by Shackman10
You don't need to get so defensive, it's a conversation about modes...did someone get bullied in high school?

The reason I said this is because their explanations were leading us away from the original point I was trying to make. Had they not felt that I didn't know this, we could have simply saved a few posts that didn't really do anything.

And no, I did not get bullied in high school, sorry.
#28
Quote by Pr3vieWX360
Ive been trying to do this for a while now, learning a scale up and down the entire fretboard fluently for improv, and im starting to wonder if its even possible


Yes it's possible.

This doesn't really have that much to do with theory -- it's more about internalizing
the shape of the scale anywhere on the fretboard. Generally, you start out with
whatever finger positions you've learned, but you eventually want to transcend
positions.

The basic approach is to practice the scale in a different ways and practice diatonic
patterns up and down the neck and starting on every string. Eventually you've
gone through enough ways of navigating the scale, that they all kind of combine
into the entire fretboard. If you practice only playing by position, that's the
only way you'll be able to see the scale and never get a real feel for the entire board.
#29
Ive been trying to do this for a while now, learning a scale up and down the entire fretboard fluently for improv, and im starting to wonder if its even possible

yes it is..my approach to scale study..example in C major

learn it in one octave at a time- first-learn the notes-
develope the finger pattern
close your eyes and visualize playing the scale-(what finger is playing the E note-what string-what fret)
play the entire scale on one string at a time-(very good exercise-for the advanced players..modulate through the cycle of fifths on this one-fun)
start the scale from any note withing the scale
learn it in all positions on the neck
transpose to a different key

have fun

wolf
#30
Another good practice technique that helps you learn intervals is just playing the scale all the way up each string.
Quote by allislost
I would say that aetherspear speaks nothing but the truth.
UG Blues Group
UG Reggae & Dub Group
Need Professional Mixing for cheap? Need Vinyl to Digital Transfers? PM Me.