#1
well as you know , d dorian for example has d e f g a b c d

but how does this works if it has the same notes as the mayor scales???? i know i nkow the root note... but i will not be playing up and down i am supposed to amke music how does this works??? i dont understand
#3
yes... i know thats what i said but, for example, d dorian is the same as c mayor scale, because if you improvise with d dorian for example you would be playing the same notes as c mayor scale so whats the difference?

because like it makes no sense that the first note is different because you will never be playing the scale up an down for musical purposes can some one please explain me ?
#4
Yup. It's exactly the same as relative keys. A minor and C major have the same notes, but start on different ones which gives a different feel. Relative keys are modal to each other in a way.

EDIT: It also makes a difference how you follow the chords and what notes you put emphasis on. D Dorian has a tonic chord of D minor, as opposed to C Major. Your main notes would/should be the arpeggio of D minor (D F A), but obviously use the other notes also.

SUPER-EDIT: Until you learn to think of modes as individual scales rather than a major scale starting on a different note, you will most likely have this problem. Think of modes as a series of intervals which (just like major and minor scales) create their own "feel".
Last edited by one vision at May 28, 2008,
#5

because like it makes no sense that the first note is different because you will never be playing the scale up an down for musical purposes can some one please explain me ?


Thats where you lose your side of the argument, but I cant back it up with anything. I'd like to hear the answer to this question too.
#6
Yeah, I actually came in here to post just that. What gives?

Is D Dorian just another way to say C Ionian?

Quote by Jerry.thewise
Thats where you lose your side of the argument, but I cant back it up with anything. I'd like to hear the answer to this question too.


What argument?


Thanks,

-g13
#7
Quote by gothikchile13
Yeah, I actually came in here to post just that. What gives?

Is D Dorian just another way to say C Ionian?

Thanks,

-g13


No, because D Dorian is D E F G A B C D
C Ionian (Major in other words) is C D E F G A B

Just like A minor ( A B C D E F G) and C Major (C D E F G A B) are not the same. They have different feels. Dammit, where's bangoodcharlotte when you need her.
#8
Quote by one vision
No, because D Dorian is D E F G A B C D
C Ionian (Major in other words) is C D E F G A B

Just like A minor ( A B C D E F G) and C Major (C D E F G A B) are not the same. They have different feels. Dammit, where's bangoodcharlotte when you need her.


So are you saying it's more chord based than single note based? I kinda see what you're getting at, but mathimatically it's the same thing.

I guess the question then, is: why do they feel different if they're the same notes?

-g13
#9
Quote by one vision
Yup. It's exactly the same as relative keys. A minor and C major have the same notes, but start on different ones which gives a different feel. Relative keys are modal to each other in a way.

EDIT: It also makes a difference how you follow the chords and what notes you put emphasis on. D Dorian has a tonic chord of D minor, as opposed to C Major. Your main notes would/should be the arpeggio of D minor (D F A), but obviously use the other notes also.

SUPER-EDIT: Until you learn to think of modes as individual scales rather than a major scale starting on a different note, you will most likely have this problem. Think of modes as a series of intervals which (just like major and minor scales) create their own "feel".


hey thanks for answering, but i dont understand, whats the difference if you can play one scale in all the fretboard the same notes that the scale has but in higher octaves and lower octaves etc. ?
#10
Quote by gothikchile13
So are you saying it's more chord based than single note based? I kinda see what you're getting at, but mathimatically it's the same thing.

I guess the question then, is: why do they feel different if they're the same notes?

-g13

They feel different because of the order of intervals, the spaces between the notes. That's how it works I think.
#11
Quote by gothikchile13


What argument?


The one that argues the difference between modes, why use this one when I can just as easily use this one, why call it something different.

I'm just trying to piece together small bits to understand what you could just as easily tell me, I learn better that way.

I suppose the difference in modes depends on the chords in the progression, a C major progression with the chords C - G - F, which is 1-5-4 according to the scale degrees, using a dorian mode following the same 1-5-4 would be Dm - Am - G chord progression, right?
#12
will...try playing everyother note from it so you'll get the feel of it. DFAC.
It's bascailly the arppegios of Dmin7

Then maybe try playing around those arppegios...slide into them
hammer/pull, bends...etc

accent the arppegios...lean on them or resovle back to them
sort of speak.
and play the others..such as the e,g,b kind of like passing notes

anyway..its 1 1/2 step from D to F (b3) and 1 full from C to D (b7).
Last edited by Ordinary at May 28, 2008,
#13
Quote by one vision
They feel different because of the order of intervals, the spaces between the notes. That's how it works I think.


Makes sense, but you're not always going to play D Dorian like D E F G A B C. I think this is more of a philosophy question than music theory .

So, is it pretty much that if I have a song in C Major and I want a happy sounding lead line, I'd write it in F Lydian?

Quote by Jerry.thewise
The one that argues the difference between modes, why use this one when I can just as easily use this one, why call it something different.

I'm just trying to piece together small bits to understand what you could just as easily tell me, I learn better that way.

I suppose the difference in modes depends on the chords in the progression, a C major progression with the chords C - G - F, which is 1-5-4 according to the scale degrees, using a dorian mode following the same 1-5-4 would be Dm - Am - G chord progression, right?



Just a quick question: why are you resolving on the IV? Shouldn't you have it resolve on the V, as in I-IV-V instead of I-V-IV? Wouldn't it sound odd otherwise?


-g13
Last edited by gothikchile13 at May 28, 2008,
#14
Quote by gothikchile13
Makes sense, but you're not always going to play D Dorian like D E F G A B C. I think this is more of a philosophy question than music theory .

So, is it pretty much that if I have a song in C Major and I want a happy sounding lead line, I'd write it in F Lydian?

-g13


It does have a whole lot to do with the intervals, take the song written in C major and because you know it is in C major you know that C is the root, you also know that in both C major and F lydian there are no sharps or flats. Start with the first note, say in the original song it is C, then the next note is E. In the C major, C is the first note and E is the third note so if you were to turn those two notes into the F lydian you say that F is the first note so A is the third note.

Don't take anything I say adamantly, but it cant hurt to experiment and see how it does feel

EDIT:

Just a quick question: why are you resolving on the IV? Shouldn't you have it resolve on the V, as in I-IV-V instead of I-V-IV? Wouldn't it sound odd otherwise?


Because I remembered hearing it somewhere those 3 numbers, dont know much about resolution and decided to just throw something together. Pardon my mistake, 1-4-5 would be better, or as I probably should say I-IV-V
Last edited by Jerry.thewise at May 28, 2008,
#15
Quote by Jerry.thewise
It does have a whole lot to do with the intervals, take the song written in C major and because you know it is in C major you know that C is the root, you also know that in both C major and F lydian there are no sharps or flats. Start with the first note, say in the original song it is C, then the next note is E. In the C major, C is the first note and E is the third note so if you were to turn those two notes into the F lydian you say that F is the first note so A is the third note.

Don't take anything I say adamantly, but it cant hurt to experiment and see how it does feel


So, are you saying that you match up the notes/intervals? I can't try it right now, so I just wanted to kinda get the logistics down.

-g13
#16
That is what I would try, so yea, see how it works out. If it doesn't, oh well, I'm not sure of logistics more or less due to the fact this comes from only basic knowledge of music in general.
#17
Scales just aren't the notes that make them up, its how you use them. At the most basic level, there's an emphasis on the tonic which is different between C major, D dorian and A natural minor. If you can't see this, and only see the white keys of a piano, then you're really thinking musically. Why would scales be named after notes if there wasn't a hierarchy of note importance?

In the end there are only 12 chromatic tones that we commonly use, what makes a piece written in a major key sound different to a minor key? They're all using the same notes right?
#18
it's basically just the triads or arppegios of the chords.
CEGBDFAC.

when you go from C to E..it's going to make a happy sound
becuase of the 2 full steps. The same as F to A.

there's a 1/2 step between B (7) and C.

the same for F lydian.... E (7) and F
#19
D dorian has a different root note to C major. Because of this, the intervals that the notes correspond to change.

C major
has the notes c d e f g a b
and they correspond to the intervals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

D dorian
has the notes d e f g a b c
and they correspond to the intervals 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

The unique intervals in each mode gives them their unique sound.

The way to use modes and get their different sounds is to think of the intervals it is made up of. Phrygian has a b2, a dark, dissononant interval. Lydian has a #4, which sounds... I dunno how to describe it but it sounds cool. Mixolydian is like the major scale but has a b7, making it bluesy and dominant.

Just drone the low E string, keep it ringing (clean setting works best). Then on the remaining five stings, play E Phrygian, E lydian, E Aeloian, E Ionian etc. and emphasise the unique intervals in each. Really listen to each scales' characteristics. Try making a melody from each mode while droning the E string.

Once you have done this, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoGQ9yHOyZQ

I hope this helps.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#20
EDIT: I completely agree to that^. Except those links are dead.

There are two ways of looking at modes. You'll find an almost equal ammount of people arguing one way as there are arguing the other way. I suggest you learn both. Both ways require you to sufficiently know your intervals, your mode forumulas, how to write strong chord progressions and heaps of other stuff. If you dont know this stuff, maybe you should take a step back from modes.

___________________________________________________________
The first way is mostly about rigid chord progressions. You must resolve to a special chord (the I/i degree chord of that mode, like the D minor in D dorian) and the chord progression must point to that special mode. If the progression starts to point to the I or vi chords of the parent scale, than its not modal.

The best way to do this is either by finding chords that contain that modes special modal note, in other words the note that distinguishes one mode from another. In dorian, this is the Major sixth, and so in D dorian the major sixth is a B. So we look for chords, usually the ones based of the modes parent scale, that contain a B. These chords are G7, Dm and Bm7b5. Bm7b5 cant be used because it resolves too well to the C chord (which would fail the progression), which leaves us with G7. So effectively for our progression to sound modal and in D dorian, we can only really use Dm and G7.

This gets even more difficult to understand because using non-diatonic chords would start to point to other modes or to no mode at all, and you would lose all modal effect.

___________________________________________________________
The second way relies completely on intervals and harmonic dissonance. Basically if you use the right harmonic intervals over a specific chord, than your melody/improv over that specific chord will have some modal feel to it. When doing this, you've got to remember that playing something like D dorian over a C major chord is impossible (its 2+2=5 impossible, not the "highly unlikely" impossible). The harmonic intervals and the chord used underneath decides the mode, not what shape your playing. This is VERY important.

So say you have a lick that uses the pentatonic minor scale over the right minor chord. But you add that special modal note (same one i was talking about before) to the mix, that lick will be a lick based around the dorian mode, as it contains that M6 which points to dorian.

This gets confusing for people who dont fully understand the right theory (and for people who barely get 5 hours sleep, as in me) as they start to think that playing that same lick, with the exact same notes, over a different chord will still be in the same mode. This is not true (as in 6+1=9 not true). The harmonic intervals will be different and therefore it will be in a different mode.

This way requires an extensive knowledge about intervals and how they relate harmonically.

___________________________________________________________
*READ THIS IF YOU COULDNT READ THAT^*
Both ways are ridiculously complicated. I havent decided yet which way is more complicated. I've heard an almost equal ammount of musicians say they use one way and an equal ammount say they use the other. Miles davis uses the first way (look at his progressions FFS) and so do alot of metal musicians. Alot of be-bop and jazz musicians use the second way. You should know both and be able to use both.
I dont believe either one is true or false. It's just that ones relates to the harmonic element of music and the other relates to the melody element of music.

And we should wait at most 5 hours for Bangoodcharlotte (whos oodcharlotte anyway?) to log on and kick my ass.
Last edited by demonofthenight at May 28, 2008,
#22
Quote by one vision
Good charlotte is some emo punk band lol
I said "ood charlotte" not good charlotte split her name up
#23
Except those links are dead
Bugger, i took that last part from my old standard response to modes threads. Well they're meant to be Joe Satriani's mode videos.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#25
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
when it's like that, what makes it different is what note you start on.

Not quite, what makes it different is the tonal centre - play those notes over a static backing of Dm and you'll be playing D Dorian, the backing is what defines the mode...no context, no mode.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
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...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#26
Quote by steven seagull
Not quite, what makes it different is the tonal centre - play those notes over a static backing of Dm and you'll be playing D Dorian, the backing is what defines the mode...no context, no mode.
Only half the time. Sometimes modes refer to the type of backing. Like Miles Davis wrote modal progressions, his songs would have been modal even if there was no melody.
Once again, there are 2 ways of looking at mode.

Quote by madshatter
you don't need to learn modes... you need to learn english...
You dont actually NEED to learn anything, its just really helpfull to learn some stuff.
#27
Quote by demonofthenight

___________________________________________________________
The first way is mostly about rigid chord progressions. You must resolve to a special chord (the I/i degree chord of that mode, like the D minor in D dorian) and the chord progression must point to that special mode. If the progression starts to point to the I or vi chords of the parent scale, than its not modal.

The best way to do this is either by finding chords that contain that modes special modal note, in other words the note that distinguishes one mode from another. In dorian, this is the Major sixth, and so in D dorian the major sixth is a B. So we look for chords, usually the ones based of the modes parent scale, that contain a B. These chords are G7, Dm and Bm7b5. Bm7b5 cant be used because it resolves too well to the C chord (which would fail the progression), which leaves us with G7. So effectively for our progression to sound modal and in D dorian, we can only really use Dm and G7.

This gets even more difficult to understand because using non-diatonic chords would start to point to other modes or to no mode at all, and you would lose all modal effect.



As I was reading this I was thinking that perhaps a Amadd9 might work, but it doesn't because it's the vi chord of C. Is that correct? i don't have my guitar with me so i can't check to see what my ears tell me. Theoretically it seemed like am add9 would work. Futhermore it seems like Asus2 would work quite well as well. but then again these are all based off the vi chord which you said was a NoNo. just curious as i'm beginning to understand modes more and more and i think this will top it off for the theory side of it (now i just need to get out my guitar and use my ears!)
#28
Quote by sisuphi
As I was reading this I was thinking that perhaps a Amadd9 might work, but it doesn't because it's the vi chord of C. Is that correct? i don't have my guitar with me so i can't check to see what my ears tell me. Theoretically it seemed like am add9 would work. Futhermore it seems like Asus2 would work quite well as well. but then again these are all based off the vi chord which you said was a NoNo. just curious as i'm beginning to understand modes more and more and i think this will top it off for the theory side of it (now i just need to get out my guitar and use my ears!)
Thats just one way of understanding modes.

Yeah, generally you want to keep of the vi chords and the I chords. Otherwise you would lose your modal effect.