#1
Is it true that if you are playing major chords then you should play the relative minor chord 3 frets below the root note of the major chord to know what pentatonic scale to play? For a minor chord do you just play the same minor pentatonic scale?

I'm guessing these aren't strict rules but how I am meant to know what other scales to play over chords and whether I should change the scale when the chord changes?
Originally posted by HarmlessLilF*ck
im not gay or anything, but if brad pitt asked me to stick my penis in him, i probably would.
#2
Quote by sotto
Is it true that if you are playing major chords then you should play the relative minor chord 3 frets below the root note of the major chord to know what pentatonic scale to play? For a minor chord do you just play the same minor pentatonic scale?

I'm guessing these aren't strict rules but how I am meant to know what other scales to play over chords and whether I should change the scale when the chord changes?

If you're playing in a major key, you use that major pentatonic scale. You are not playing the relative minor. For example, if I'm over a C major progression (meaning that C is my tonal center), I am playing C major and never A minor. It's that simple.

If you're working in pentatonics, use major pentatonics in a major key and minor pentatonics in a minor key. I don't know why you seem to think that only the minor pentatonic scale exists.

For expanding your scale vocabulary, learn some music theory.
#3
Right now, you think that Am and C major are the same scales. This is inaccurate, but explaining why requires about six long posts by me and I'm not doing that tonight. So for now, your approach works. Play your Am pentatonic over a C major progression and that same scale over an Am progression.

The theory link in my sig should help you understand basic theory. It does get into more davanced stuff, though. You'll find that the first bit makes sense, even if it requires critical reading, and then it'll start talking about modes of the melodic minor and you'll be all "WTF???" but it should cover the basics and then you can understand why your idea is inaccurate.

Others may try to explain this to you, and if you feel like reading, listen to them. However, under no circumstances should you listen to the user "Ordinary."
#4
Quote by bangoodcharlote
However, under no circumstances should you listen to the user "Ordinary."


Well TS, that method DOES yield the "correct" notes. By taking the tonic chord of a major key and moving it down "three frets" you have found the root note of your relative minor pentatonic scale, which oddly enough, contains the same notes of its relative major pentatonic scale(A minor pentatonic: A C D E G, C major pentatonic: C D E G A). This will give you notes that sound about right over that C major progression. However, I highly recommend you learn why. I'll just get you started by saying that since C major and A minor are relative keys, they have the same notes. However, each note has a different function in relation to the root(E is the third in C major, but the fifth in A minor). When you play the notes of A minor pentatonic over a C major progression, they don't function in relation to the A, but in relation to the C as a root. Thus, you're really playing C major, no matter how you play A C D E G.

I don't think that was too tough to understand. Just let me know if you need clearing up.
Last edited by grampastumpy at May 31, 2008,
#6
why ??? becuase it works.lmao
not your way or the highway.

give me a break......yes, yes...C major penta starts at the C.
so dose the C maj.

common sence will tell it's easier to count 1 1/2 step down
then to count 6 steps up. it's just easier to remember without
racking your brain.


wtf ??? you don't even know what a hindu scale is chorlote.
It's just a minor scale with a major 3rd.

read this sometimes chortote all paste it on your link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

give me a break you say flying in a blue dream is in C lydian..??
when I look at the key signature of that song there 1 # which is
the key off G...obviousely C lydian is the 4th mode of Gmaj.
Last edited by Ordinary at May 31, 2008,
#7
Quote by Ordinary
why ??? becuase it works.lmao
not your way or the highway.

give me a break......yes, yes...C major penta starts at the C.
so dose the C maj.

common sence will tell it's easier to count 1 1/2 step down
then to count 6 steps up. it's just easier to remember without
racking your brain.


wtf ??? you don't even know what a hindu scale is chorlote.
It's just a minor scale with a major 3rd.

read this sometimes chortote all paste it on your link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
Just curious, who are you talking to? I know for the second half of that post you were addressing "chorlote", but the first part seems to have something to do with my post.

First of all, you've mixed diatonic and chromatic steps in a comparison. Fantastic. It would either be 6 diatonic steps/a major sixth up versus 3 diatonic steps/a minor third down or 4 1/2 whole steps up versus 1 1/2 whole steps down. The former is the one that is more applicable when discussing diatonic harmony. And if you want to take the "easier" approach, a minor third down does not require you to "rack your brain". In addition, some people do not in fact find it easier to count downwards. It varies from person to person.

Also, that bit about the hindu scale is like me calling someone an idiot because they don't know the Union general who fought in the Battle of Murfreesboro. While potentially a handy piece of information, it is completely irrelevant in most discussions.
#8
what ?? chormatic ...where are you going to steer this into now kid O ?
There something that I 'll absolutely not do is take advice from a 15 year old.
Last edited by Ordinary at May 31, 2008,
#9
What are you talking about? Maybe whole step would have been a better way to say it. What I mean is, that you're comparing 1 1/2 WHOLE steps(C B Bb A) to 6 DIATONIC steps(C D E F G A), thus exaggerating the discrepancy between which is easier to count. If you had compared them with the proper ones, it would be 2 diatonic steps down(C B A) versus 6 diatonic steps up(C D E F G A). I was just pointing out that your comparison was illogical. Anyways, my main point was that for some people it is, in fact, easier to think of the relative minor as starting on the sixth rather than a minor third under the major key.

Is English your first language?
#10
wtf ??? are you talking about ...he said play 3 frets down which is 1 1/2 down

give me a freaken break...6 notes up then

what piont ??...some people thinks it's easier to just play 3 frets down
Last edited by Ordinary at May 31, 2008,
#11
Quote by Ordinary
There something that I 'll absolutely not do is take advice from a 15 year old.
That's your problem. Me being 15 does not mean that I will automatically know theory(or most other things) to a worse degree than you. Maybe you should take what I'm saying, genuinely evaluate it and toss it out because you think it's wrong rather than because of my age.
Quote by Ordinary
wtf ??? are you talking about ...he said play 3 frets down which is 1 1/2 down

give me a freaken break...6 notes up then
It is 1 1/2 whole steps down, but 2 diatonic steps down. My point is that common sense does not say it's easier to think of it as a minor third down because it differs from person to person. Either a minor third down or a major sixth up both work. As long as it starts on the sixth you're good.

Quote by Ordinary
what piont ??...some people thinks it's easier to just play 3 frets down
Yeah, but not everyone like you insinuated by saying it relies on common sense. I'm just saying thinking downwards works better for some people, upwards for others.

TS: A way to circumvent all this madness would be to just learn the major pentatonic scale as well. That way, instead of having to derive the root form the relative minor, you could just start right on it(C major pentatonic for C major, how convenient).
Last edited by grampastumpy at May 31, 2008,
#12
Quote by Ordinary
why ??? becuase it works.lmao
not your way or the highway.

give me a break......yes, yes...C major penta starts at the C.
so dose the C maj.

common sence will tell it's easier to count 1 1/2 step down
then to count 6 steps up. it's just easier to remember without
racking your brain.


wtf ??? you don't even know what a hindu scale is chorlote.
It's just a minor scale with a major 3rd.

read this sometimes chortote all paste it on your link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

give me a break you say flying in a blue dream is in C lydian..??
when I look at the key signature of that song there 1 # which is
the key off G...obviousely C lydian is the 4th mode of Gmaj.


I honestly think my IQ has dropped tremendously from trying to decipher this.


And to the TS yes this will work, because you will be using the pentatonic scale of the relative minor, which contain the same notes. However, just remember that the root or "home" note is the root of the major chord you are playing over.. I hope that made sense. So for example, if you are playing over C Major, you can use the A minor pentatonic box shape, but just remember to finish on C, not A.
#13
Then start using some common sence
or algebra.lol

not everyone is like you either and no everyone wants to be a robot.
and not every one wants to play or sound like you.
this that little something that makes my playing different from other
millions of guitirst out there..but unfortunately not...lmao i don't sound
diffrent..beucase I didn't invented counting from the octive down to
the 6th. or soloing modes over a chord.lol

and i'm not ready to start burning my music books or CDs...just becuase
of charlot .lol

espacially the one written by Les Paul..lol
it say you to practice soloing modes over chords.

give me break...as if you've never tried to sweep Amin over a Gmaj chord
before..obviousely these are both in the key of C maj.

unless you're tone deaf or something...you'll figure out..it dosn't sound
right.

and what hell are appregios of C maj ?..the stupid notes in the key of Cmaj scale

Then I'm going to start taking lesson from a kid of how to identify
the relative minor on the fretboard or tone centers
or how to play a damn scale.
I've playing twice as long as you've been on this planet.lol

you apply modes over chords so you're not randomly hoping
you're land on a good note when improving.

Within each modes of it's corrosponding chords are the appegios.

when i say Amin penta...I'm especfic of pionting out ..if you want to achive a certain
flavor..drop the 2 notes from the diatonic. Basically of what all
the damn music books i have say...that I mighthave to burn.lmao

what key ??? i didn't mention keys.lol
Last edited by Ordinary at May 31, 2008,
#14
Quote by Ordinary
what piont ??...some people thinks it's easier to just play 3 frets down
Bud, if you play the standard "Am Pentatonic Box" at the 5th fret over a C major progression, it is a C major scale. That's it. My post is correct. You don't know what you're talking about. Please do us all a favor and stop posting.

This has nothing to do with arps, so I don't know why you're bringing them up.


Watch, now I'm an idiot for ending a sentence with a preposition ON AN INTERNET FORUM.


Every time you post, I'm going to quote Scrubs and tell everyone in the thread to ignore you. After that, none of us are going to respond to your desperate cries for attention in MT; you will simply be ignored.
#15
what attention ???
me ripping B min pentatonic over B min for a different flavor when
the rest of it was in F#min pentatonic.
yeah..yeah I wrote in A as the parent scale .lmao

every body knows the major penta sounds funky when you
first play it.lol

becuase I can even thou you say it can't be done.

okay explain this to me...explain Hotel california to me.
I've played this songs for years and years. i learned it
by ear, solo and all. I've never thought too much about it
or tried to analyed it.
I still don't understand the chords structure
behind it...and don't tell me it's accidental..becuase
that song was written a certian way for reasons.
Is this thing common in folk music or other types of music ?
Last edited by Ordinary at May 31, 2008,
#16
Quote by Ordinary
what ?? chormatic ...where are you going to steer this into now kid O ?
There something that I 'll absolutely not do is take advice from a 15 year old.
WTF? your older than 15? I thought you were like 12 or something

And dont rip on Mr grampastumpy, he's a heap easier to talk to than some of the guys I know that are older than him.

And Sue, please stop ripping on Ordinary. Only arrogant jerks (like me on occasions) deserve that.

To T/S
Yes you can play the same notes of the A minor scale over C major. Yes it will sound consonant.
But it wont technically be A minor. Technically, the chords underneath decide the scale/mode.

I should change the scale when the chord changes?
You should only be thinking about playing different things over different chords, and how the same notes sound different over different chords, after you've gained some skills in composition and improvisation.

This is called harmonic dissonance. It's a very hard topic to explain.
#17
Hotel California was written using chromaticism because it sounds good that way. However, as you must assign a name to it, call it pitch axis. All of the chords are found in some type of B minor scale, whether it be natural minor, dorian, or harmonic minor, and makes sense in a B minor progression.


Should I change the scale when the chord changes?


This is a complex topic. If you have a simple progression, C F C G, then just play C major over the whole thing. If you have a progression that uses pitch axis, such as Am G F E7, then you change from A natural minor over Am, F, and G, to A harmonic minor over E7. You don't, however, talk about playing G mixolydian over the G chord of F Lydian over F; it's just Am.

However...

You can take a jazz approach and see each chord as an island. Over Am, play anything that makes sense over an Am chord. Over G, play anything that makes sense over a G chord, whether or not it makes sense in an Am context. Keep in mind that this is NOT the standard approach to rock soloing and it will sound "off-the-wall."
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at May 31, 2008,
#18
I didn't say anything her and the next i know she's going off on me..

wtf is up that ???
I thought she was ripping on you for a while...lmao

okay i get it..just play C maj over CFG...that's what i was told at the
begining in grade school.

The problem was, it was hit or miss when using C maj pentatonic
over that. In the first year or so I did that. I sounded like crap,
epecailly while over the IV chord. Especailly when playing or riding
the E note while over Fmaj becuase the E acts like a leading tone.
Without the F note to act as a root note.

If you pull or hammer the next note ... E to G. it's as if you're
doing Emin over the Fmaj chord . It sounds horriable

Or even sometimes when over the G chord if you're leaning or riding
on the C note. The C acts like the 4th, but the B note had been ommited
which is the 3rd of Gmaj.
Last edited by Ordinary at May 31, 2008,
#19
Quote by Ordinary
I didn't say anything her and the next i know she's going off on me..

wtf is up that ???
I thought she was ripping on you for a while...lmao
Your constant being an arrogant asshat is enough to constitute a verbal scolding. Your use of that smilie tell me that, despite posting inaccurate/misleading information and affirming it as the truth, you think you're being cute; I assure you, you're not. The fact that you've been like this for a month merits a warning, and if I were a mod, you would have been temp-banned a long time ago.

So.....read up on your theory and make sure you're accurate before you insist that you're correct. In the mean time, ask lucid questions and accept answers graciously, and read the theory link in my sig (ignore the backwards CoF).
#20
I'm possitive about FACE. FACE is Fmaj7. ACE is Amin
To play Cmaj penta over Fmaj...use the Fmaj7 appegios to guide you.

This is where most people get lost when playing over the IV chord.
There's no root to guide you.

another option is to play the Fmaj pentatonic over the IV to retain
the bluesy sound without playing out of key of C.

Do the same while over Gmaj or the V chord. Use Gmaj pentatonic.
you will still be in the key of C.

It will no longer be hit or miss of just playing C whatever .
You have to remember...we're talking about pentatonic not diatonic.
#21
Quote by Ordinary
Then start using some common sence
or algebra.lol

not everyone is like you either and no everyone wants to be a robot.
and not every one wants to play or sound like you.
this that little something that makes my playing different from other
millions of guitirst out there..but unfortunately not...lmao i don't sound
diffrent..beucase I didn't invented counting from the octive down to
the 6th. or soloing modes over a chord.lol

and i'm not ready to start burning my music books or CDs...just becuase
of charlot .lol

espacially the one written by Les Paul..lol
it say you to practice soloing modes over chords.

give me break...as if you've never tried to sweep Amin over a Gmaj chord
before..obviousely these are both in the key of C maj.

unless you're tone deaf or something...you'll figure out..it dosn't sound
right.

and what hell are appregios of C maj ?..the stupid notes in the key of Cmaj scale

Then I'm going to start taking lesson from a kid of how to identify
the relative minor on the fretboard or tone centers
or how to play a damn scale.
I've playing twice as long as you've been on this planet.lol

you apply modes over chords so you're not randomly hoping
you're land on a good note when improving.

Within each modes of it's corrosponding chords are the appegios.

when i say Amin penta...I'm especfic of pionting out ..if you want to achive a certain
flavor..drop the 2 notes from the diatonic. Basically of what all
the damn music books i have say...that I mighthave to burn.lmao

what key ??? i didn't mention keys.lol


That has got to be the most ignorant thing I've ever read.

Did you know that in order to communicate effectively, you have to use a language correctly?
More UltraMatic than you.
#23
Christ, new heights of idiocy...
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt.
He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.


Remember: A prudent question is one half of wisdom.

Click.
#24
Quote by Ordinary
I'm possitive about FACE. FACE is Fmaj7. ACE is Amin
To play Cmaj penta over Fmaj...use the Fmaj7 appegios to guide you.

This is where most people get lost when playing over the IV chord.
There's no root to guide you.

another option is to play the Fmaj pentatonic over the IV to retain
the bluesy sound without playing out of key of C.

Do the same while over Gmaj or the V chord. Use Gmaj pentatonic.
you will still be in the key of C.

It will no longer be hit or miss of just playing C whatever .
You have to remember...we're talking about pentatonic not diatonic.


If you were playing blues in A you wouldn't be using a FMaj7, bud. But, seriously dude, you're just spewing random, trivial crap everywhere with no direction.
#25
Quote by demonofthenight
WTF? your older than 15? I thought you were like 12 or something


Ordinary, why do you think that you need to apply modes in order to not be "playing random notes" over chords and hoping something sounds good? You know you can just kinda...ya know, consciously think about the notes your playing, hang on chord tones, that kinda thing? You seem to be confusing modes with confusing chord changes with mode changes.

If you're gonna toss that because I'm 15, there is no hope for you.
#27
Quote by branny1982
Ordinary, you intrigue me.

Tell me about yourself.
How old are you? Where do you live? Did you get any formal schooling? What do you do in the evenings?... that kind of stuff.

This isn't off topic, we really need to understand this person


He intrigues me too

Ordinary - it's obvious you've got a fair bit of experience and ability, however your approach to theory is somewhat misguided. The thing is, if it works for you then who cares - individuality is what makes us unique and that's what makes a good musician stand out.

However, you need to realise that your approach to the fundamentals of theory is different to what's generally accepted. People come in this thread for advice on learning theory, and western music has been pretty standardized for the last 500 years. When you, or anyone else for that matter, throw out advice that contradicts it all you're doing is confusing the people who haven't learned this stuff yet. And that's understandably very frustrating for the guys (and lady!) who take the trouble to help out.

Don't get me wrong, there's no reason to change what you do if it works for you, but it's not something you should be advocating others do. I reckon you have some good ideas about melodys and you probably have a good musical ear so you're obviously in a position to help, but it helps everyone if you stick with convention. The whole "playing E Phrygian over C major" thing is wrong, there's no getting away from that - yes, you *can* do it but it's horrendously fiddly, the kind of thing jazz players would do if they had their own version of Jackass...like "Jazzckass" maybe.

"Hi, welcome to Jazzckass...I'm Al Dimeola and THIS is playing a different mode over each chord with changes twice each bar in a 3/4 meter. With my nuts in a pond full of alligators"
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#28
Quote by steven seagull
"Hi, welcome to Jazzckass...I'm Al Dimeola and THIS is playing a different mode over each chord with changes twice each bar in a 3/4 meter. With my nuts in a pond full of alligators"
Why is al dimeola's nuts in a pond of alligators? Is that why he looks slightly girly?

You cant play E phrygian over C major. It doesnt work. Saying that you are is like saying you found a way to make 2+2=5. It's impossible. You could play the E phrygian shape over C major, but you would actually be playing C ionian.

And I would also like to know about ordinary. His music is actually quite good, honestly I know guys that have been writing music for years that dont write as good.
Except I would add to brannys questions, where/how did you learn to play music? Where did you grow up?
#29
I'm actually interested in what Ordinary is trying to say, but I can't understand his posts dammit!
#30
Hey Ordinary - Your spelling is great!
Guitars:
1968 Telecaster (MIA)
1979 Strat (MIA)
1983 Fender Bullet S3 (MIA)
2007 Gibson VM LP (MIA)
2007 Fender Telecaster Highway I (MIA)
1978 Fender Acoustic (MIT)