#1
ok so ive got the basics of changing modes down but cant seem to use it effectively in song writing.

currently im trying to change from a B aeolian (minor) to B Phrygian.

after i do the change (which is very sudden) and i start playing the notes in the phrygian mode it just sounds crappy (for lack of a better expression)

is there anyway i could possibly make the change less in-your-face (again for lack of a better expression) by possibly having tempo changes or a drum fill?

all help greatly appreciated
#2
B aeolian to B phrygian shouldn't be that jarring no matter how you do it. Exactly what are you playing?
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#3
um , while ur playing, just flatten the 2nd?
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#4
maybe what your playing is to conflicting with the b2

especially if your chords don't have a b2(b9)
song stuck in my head today


#5
a suggestion just put forward by a bandmate, do you think it would sound like a better if i completely forgot the change to phrygian and instead went to the b melodic minor and changed to something else from there?
#6
Basically, because you can't really do what you're trying to do - music doesn't work like that.

If you really want to have a Phrygian feel to your song without screwing up the overall context you first need to ensure you're in the right key, which I'm guessing is B minor. Therefore, you'd solo over your progression using the B minor scale, all good.

For your "phrygian" bit you're going to have to drop out of your progression and give yourself a relatively static backing to establish a different tonal centre, that will allow you to use the relative phrygian mode of B minor...

...put more simply, if you want this to sound right you really need to play in F# phrygian over a static Fm chord....

...put even more simply, just continue using the notes of the B minor scale but play over an F#m chord and think in terms of the intervals of the Phrygian mode 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
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#7
would it not just end up sounding like ive just gone up and played a lick from a new root note?
#8
Quote by liam1107
would it not just end up sounding like ive just gone up and played a lick from a new root note?


You need to stay on the static chord long enough to establish the new tonality for the listener. Anything more than 7 seconds should do it, that;s long enough for the listener to "forget" the previous tonal center established by your progression and fixate on the new backing.

Even playing the existing Bm solo over a static F#m chord will sound completely different. Try it for yourself and it'll sound phrygian if you play the exact same notes and simply change the backing because, well, that's how modes work.

And isn't that also a damn sight less complicated?
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#9
so could we start a solo while still on the B minor then half way through it change it up to the F# Phrygian?
#10
Yup, that's all you need to do to have a phrygian bit in your solo. Don't get me wrong, you *could* use B phrygian but that's going to be a lot more difficult to fit in and it wouldn't sound anywhere near as smooth as simply changing the chord to create the mode.
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#11
Quote by steven seagull
You need to stay on the static chord long enough to establish the new tonality for the listener. Anything more than 7 seconds should do it, that;s long enough for the listener to "forget" the previous tonal center established by your progression and fixate on the new backing.

Even playing the existing Bm solo over a static F#m chord will sound completely different. Try it for yourself and it'll sound phrygian if you play the exact same notes and simply change the backing because, well, that's how modes work.

And isn't that also a damn sight less complicated?



i was wondering what is a static chord and static tonalitie.

and to the F# question is it that your modulating to F#phrygian using the fifth chord as a pivot?
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jun 1, 2008,
#12
I disagree with everyone suggesting that he play F# Phrygian. It's much easier to change to a parallel scale than relative.

I would have to know the chords/riff to assist you, Mr. TS, but I'm willing to help.
#13
just by chance isnt it going to sound very weird suddenly changing from a minor chord progression to a phrygian one, or would it be easier to have a simple riff as the backing like a pedal point riff?
#14
It should be easier to do something simple (um, yeah), but something complex won't sound weird.

I have songs that switch between Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, and Phrygian without any warning at all.
#15
Quote by lbc_sublime
i was wondering what is a static chord and static tonalitie.

and to the F# question is it that your modulating to F#phrygian using the fifth chord as a pivot?


By static chord I just mean staying on the same chord for a while, the tonality is basically the key, the chord that the music wants to resolve to. With a chord progression there's usually one chord that is the musical centre that everything else leads back to, that's just the nature of western music.

Modes work best over a static chord, so if you want to stick a modal passage in a piece of modern music you often need to come away from your progression and just have a single chord to play over.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
I disagree with everyone suggesting that he play F# Phrygian. It's much easier to change to a parallel scale than relative.

I would have to know the chords/riff to assist you, Mr. TS, but I'm willing to help.

In all fairness I think it's only me that's suggesting it...

I personally think it's an easier way to ease yourself into using modes and hearing how they work, but your ways are usually good too You're right though, knowing the context would help a lot with regards to what would be more appropriate.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Jun 1, 2008,
#16
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I disagree with everyone suggesting that he play F# Phrygian. It's much easier to change to a parallel scale than relative.

I would have to know the chords/riff to assist you, Mr. TS, but I'm willing to help.


for the riff thats being used at the point where the we want to change its a B for two bars then a G for two and then back again
#18
Quote by liam1107
for the riff thats being used at the point where the we want to change its a B for two bars then a G for two and then back again


B and G what? You need to be far more descriptive.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#20
By static chord I just mean staying on the same chord for a while, the tonality is basically the key, the chord that the music wants to resolve to. With a chord progression there's usually one chord that is the musical centre that everything else leads back to, that's just the nature of western music.

Modes work best over a static chord, so if you want to stick a modal passage in a piece of modern music you often need to come away from your progression and just have a single chord to play over.


ic thank you very much this makes something else i was reading make whole lot more sence to me
song stuck in my head today


#21
yea they are just power chords but according to the scale if i played the chords they would both be minor

and before that we've got B minor - G minor - E minor - D major (all powerchords of course)
#22
hmmm - - what are you backing notes/chords?

I just tried doing a B, A, E simple bass note backing and B aeolian, dorian and, phrygian all sound sweet over those notes.

it really does depend a lot on what your backing is. I've found modes are a lot easier to deal with and sound really great if you leave chords out of it and play over an easy bass part - or power chords.
#27
Quote by liam1107
yea they are just power chords but according to the scale if i played the chords they would both be minor

and before that we've got B minor - G minor - E minor - D major (all powerchords of course)


no reason why B minor or B phrygian wouldn't work over that. B minor is going to sound a bit more familiar, but phrygian also works, it just have a different flavor.

B to G is fine for both modes as well
#28
they are powerchords yes.

i guess i need to fully state the situation, the chord progressions we have done so far are all powerchords and are all mentioned above, the reason we want to change to phrygian is to change the tonality of the song and if possible change the chord progression later in the song to incorparate the b2 into a new chord progression without it sounding crappy
#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
So are they full chords or powerchords?



he prolly means barre chords
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#32
Quote by bangoodcharlote
He clarified; they're powerchords.


then please explain how you would get minor or major chords?
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#34
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They're implied chords.

Earlier today, I referred to E5 D5 C5 B5 implying Em D C B7.



implied by a scale i am guessing?

or just implied by the notes that make up the other chords
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jun 1, 2008,
#35
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It should be easier to do something simple (um, yeah), but something complex won't sound weird.

I have songs that switch between Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, and Phrygian without any warning at all.


Me too. TS, you can do it either way you want, you can switch to a parallel mode or you can stay in key, whatever you like more
#36
Quote by lbc_sublime
implied by a scale i am guessing?

or just implied by the notes that make up the other chords
Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas.