#1
I am just thinking out loud here; I have not actually formed a proper opinion on abortion, this is just one line of reasoning that I have contemplated. I am open-minded about this subject and I would appreciate it if replies consisted of logical reasoning rather than the usual insults and narrow-minded lectures.


A lot of people are against abortion because they say that it is murder. To murder something, it has to be alive. While abortions take place late on in pregnancies as well as early on, they consist of different procedures. The following is in relation to abortions early on in pregnancies, when the foetus is not yet developed into an actual baby.

The definition of when someone is "dead" (i.e. not alive) is when they have no brain activity. When their heart has stopped as well, there is no question about it. Since a zygote or foetus does not have a brain or heart, they are not alive by human standards. Therefore, it cannot be killed in the sense that it is murder, because the zygote or foetus is, by definition, not alive.

Just to clarify, plants also have no brains, but "killing" plants is not illegal, and the only laws they follow are the laws of nature.

A prerequisite to murder (of humans) is that the victim is alive. Since foetuses have neither brain nor heart and are therefore defined to be "not alive", they cannot be murdered.

Thus, abortion in the early stages of pregnancy under the conditions I have stated cannot be defined as murder.


Any additions, reasonable criticisms etc are welcome; I'd like to hear some reasoned opinions on this subject.

No offense intended.
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Manuel, please try to understand before one of us DIES.

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#2
Wow, this solves the whole debate

EDIT:

A prerequisite to murder (of humans) is that the victim is alive. Since foetuses have neither brain nor heart and are therefore defined to be "not alive", they cannot be murdered.

orly?

EDIT EDIT: This post also doesn't try to say why killing potential, conceived (I said conceived, don't give me that sperm crap) life is just as bad as killing life. Not to mention the original edit.
Last edited by Craigo at Jun 2, 2008,
#4
Abortion is fine, foetuses are not people. Neither are babies, they're underdeveloped, not fully formed in mind or body.

I am pro retro-active abortion. Babies should be removed if parents cannot cope. And if the parents can't cope with what they've done to the child, they should kill themselves too. And everything will be just dandy.

This is my real opinion, fyi, I am not trolling.
#5
Yes, this has been said plenty of times before. But a foetus has already formed unique combination of DNA, which is why many people feel that it is already a unique soul and so we could be potentially destroying a human being.

EDIT: Not to mention that the definition of murder is constantly varied depending on who you are talking to.

Anyway, I'm pro-choice. Believe what you believe.
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#6
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#7
w00t. finally someone gets it right!!! foetuses aren't people (or babies)

Now can we please stop the 5-a-day abortion threads...?
#8
I presume this thread will grow to the size that it swallows the whole pit.
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#9
you can have an abortion up to twenty somethin weeks right?
and a baby is supposed to develop a heart beat at like 7 or 8 weeks old?
so then if the mother aborts any time after a heart beat has developed..then they are killing the baby pretty much right?
#10
well actually, they're receiving nutrients from their mother, not to mention blood. Blinking has been observed in the fetuses. I'd say it's murder
#12
Wouldnt masturbating be considered murder too cuz you're potentially killing millions of future children?

This has probably been answered a million times, but I dont care.
#13
Quote by chillrock

The definition of when someone is "dead" (i.e. not alive) is when they have no brain activity. When their heart has stopped as well, there is no question about it. Since a zygote or foetus does not have a brain or heart, they are not alive by human standards.

Maybe not by human standards, but still alive nontheless, therefore it is still murder.

/DisprovingYourTheory
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#15
Quote by EscapeHellview
you can have an abortion up to twenty somethin weeks right?
and a baby is supposed to develop a heart beat at like 7 or 8 weeks old?
so then if the mother aborts any time after a heart beat has developed..then they are killing the baby pretty much right?



that was the main gist of what i was saying, also relating to brain activity, and with the emphasis on the fact that before those 7 or 8 weeks, abortion is not murder.
Does anyone remember laughter?

Manuel, please try to understand before one of us DIES.

my gear:

Gibson LP Standard
Epiphone SG
Classical guitar
Peavey ValveKing 112
Marshall MG15
BOSS ME-50
#17
Oh dear. You somewhat got a point, but the DNA dude had one too.
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#18
The definition of when someone is "dead" (i.e. not alive) is when they have no brain activity. When their heart has stopped as well, there is no question about it. Since a zygote or foetus does not have a brain or heart, they are not alive by human standards. Therefore, it cannot be killed in the sense that it is murder, because the zygote or foetus is, by definition, not alive.


Then obviously you don't know your science. The baby's heart start beating at 18 days after conception, others said that it occurs at or about 21 days or around the 4th week after fertilization. But what is true is that most mothers don't yet know they are pregnant at this early stage. In the 26th through 38th weeks, that's when sensory input is formed, where the amount of body fat rapidly increases. Lungs are not fully mature. Thalamic brain connections, which mediate sensory input, form. The ACTUAL brain forms around 9 weeks, but whether or not there is brain activity within that is what's debated. As far as LEGALLY, the unborn have no rights to property, pretty much sticking with the archaic fact that one must be "born alive" to inherit, to vote, etc...don't believe me, look it up.
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#19
Quote by The Spoon
Wouldnt masturbating be considered murder too cuz you're potentially killing millions of future children?

This has probably been answered a million times, but I dont care.


What, you don't swallow yours afterwards like everyone else?

MURDERER.
#20
I believe that everybody can define what they consider "murder" however I don't believe that people who believe that abortion is murder should have the right to push that belief on somebody else. It angers me that in my own country (The republic of Ireland), that elderly women, heavily influenced by the catholic church , have the power to stop younger people making a choice that affects them and them only. If one is against abortion, thats absolutedly fine by me, I would just prefer that the choice remain open to those who aren't against it.
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#21
The issue is where you believe life starts. Some believes life starts at conception. Some believe it starts at the actual time of birth.
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#22
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What, you don't swallow yours afterwards like everyone else?

MURDERER.



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