#1
are there minor keys, sharp keys, flat keys, or are there only major diatonic keys? because , why are there things like pentatonic and stuff like that if it has the same notes??
#2
Pentatonic only means that its five (penta) of the notes from the scale. A pentatonic minor scale has five of the notes from the minor scale (the first, third, fourth, fifth and seventh).

And yes there are minor, sharp and flat keys.
#3
I dont know a whole lot about keys.

A pentatonic scale is a version of the Major scale as is all other types of scales.
I'm Tyler
#4
technically speaking, there are only major diatonic keys. but, do you know what a relative minor is? if not, it's this. the C major scale contains the notes C D E F G A B C. the A minor scale contains the notes A B C D E F G A. they are the same notes, just one is played over a C major chord and the other is over an A minor chord. hence, the C major key signature is also the A minor key signature. as far as sharp or flat keys, they don't exist unless you mean something like the key of Eb. but Eb is just like any other key. the notes of the Eb major scale are Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb. the relative minor of Eb is C minor, which is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C. the relative minor of any key, for the record, is one and a half steps or three frets lower than the root of the major scale. i don't know that that helped you, but i tried.
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#5
oh, and pentatonics are five note scales that are the first, third, fourth, fifth, and seventh degrees of the minor scale in question and the first, second, third, fifth, and sixth notes of the major scale. allow me to explain. for the sake of ease, let's use C major. once again, the scale is C D E F G A B C. the C major pentatonic is C D E G A C, the first, second, third, fifth, and sixth notes of the major scale. the A minor pentatonic is A C D E G A. once again, the scales are the same notes in the same order, they just start on different notes, giving them different sounds and feelings. i know that for whatever reason, shortly after i post this, an a**hole is going to come along and say "offtopic" and bash me, but this is what i think you meant by the question.
Megadeth > Metallica
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Randy Rhoads > Everybody

Quote by gamenerd323
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#6
Aren't all keys diatonic?
Each key has only one of each degree...
Pentatonic scales are not keys, they are scales...
Keys are the centre of tonality or "gravity" of the piece, which resides bounded by phrases (and cadences subsuquently), and can be major or minor.
Since major or minor are modes, I still don't understand why all other modes aren't considered keys, maybe because of their mood...


Also, certain pentatonic scales can be based in different keys. A pentatonic minor would be based in the key of Amin (right?), while A pent major in major key (I think)...

Also, both minor and major keys display sharps or flats, depending on the alteration, and how you form the tetrachords...
#7
Since major or minor are modes


No, they aren't. Music based in a major or minor key isn't modal.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
Please review the link in my sig and ignore everything in this thread. There is misinformation and half-explained information that is taught correctly in the link.
#10
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, they aren't. Music based in a major or minor key isn't modal.


Well, some modes are major, others are minor, and I think Locrian is diminished...

What I didn't get, is why the common "major key" or "minor key" is only refered to the structure, pattern, scale of the Ionian and Aeolian modes, and not to any other minor or major mode....
I know it has something to do with the history of music, and Ancient Greek's thoughts about modes and the behaviour they "imposed", but can't remember it that well...
#11

Well, some modes are major, others are minor, and I think Locrian is diminished...



Which is different from saying the major scale is a mode.
#12
Quote by confusius
Which is different from saying the major scale is a mode.


I was talking not in the sense if it could be considered modal music, or tonal music, etc, but I was saying roughly the major and minor scales coincide with that of the mode scales... And roughly that major and minor scales are present in tonal music, keys, etc..
So why aren't the other "mode scales" considered as part of "Keys" also?
I am asking for the history of it, cause I searched in this forums lessons and no one from the ones I saw described it....


Now that I read it, my statement was somewhat confusing...
#13
Quote by gonzaw
What I didn't get, is why the common "major key" or "minor key" is only refered to the structure, pattern, scale of the Ionian and Aeolian modes, and not to any other minor or major mode....
Something in a major/minor key is not restricted to a 7-tone scale.

Listen to "Song 2" on my profile. You'll notice that the song is clearly in the key of D minor, but I use notes borrowed from the D Phrygian, Dorian, and Harmonic Minor scales.
#14
Quote by gonzaw
I was talking not in the sense if it could be considered modal music, or tonal music, etc, but I was saying roughly the major and minor scales coincide with that of the mode scales... And roughly that major and minor scales are present in tonal music, keys, etc..
So why aren't the other "mode scales" considered as part of "Keys" also?
I am asking for the history of it, cause I searched in this forums lessons and no one from the ones I saw described it....


Now that I read it, my statement was somewhat confusing...


Other modes aren't keys because modal music is not the same as modern tonal music. No modes are keys. Ionian is not the same as major, and aeolian is not the same as minor.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#15
Quote by confusius
Which is different from saying the major scale is a mode.


The Major scale is identical to the Ionian modal scale.

Quote by gonzaw

What I didn't get, is why the common "major key" or "minor key" is only refered to the structure, pattern, scale of the Ionian and Aeolian modes, and not to any other minor or major mode....


the Major and minor scales are identical to the Ionian mode and Aeolian mode. They are the same scales, with the same formulas and same sound.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 6, 2008,
#16
Quote by GuitarMunky
The Major scale is identical to the Ionian modal scale.


They are used completely differently, they mean different things, they have their roots in completely different musical conventions, and until recently, they were structurally very different. They are not the same, and using the terms interchangeably is wrong.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
Quote by Archeo Avis
They are used completely differently, they mean different things, they have their roots in completely different musical conventions, and until recently, they were structurally very different. They are not the same, and using the terms interchangeably is wrong.


they are not completely different scales.... they are exactly identical. The term mode and scale can and is used interchangeably. Modes are often referred to as modal scales.


Give me an example of a piece of music that is Ionian, but is NOT Major.
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Something in a major/minor key is not restricted to a 7-tone scale.

Listen to "Song 2" on my profile. You'll notice that the song is clearly in the key of D minor, but I use notes borrowed from the D Phrygian, Dorian, and Harmonic Minor scales.



Yeah, keys aren't restrincted to an only scale.
I am asking since when the distinction between "key" and "mode" began...

Quote by Archeo Avis
Other modes aren't keys because modal music is not the same as modern tonal music. No modes are keys. Ionian is not the same as major, and aeolian is not the same as minor.


What made modal music not the same as tonal music?
I mean, those concepts "evolved" over time, what made them "evolve" differently? (as to what made ancient greeks think about modes in a certain way, and what made modern people think about keys in a different way?)
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
they are not completely different scales.... they are exactly identical. The term mode and scale can and is used interchangeably. Modes are often referred to as modal scales.


Give me an example of a piece of music that is Ionian, but is NOT Major.


I'm having deja vu - again :P
#20
Quote by gonzaw
Yeah, keys aren't restrincted to an only scale.
I am asking since when the distinction between "key" and "mode" began...


What made modal music not the same as tonal music?
I mean, those concepts "evolved" over time, what made them "evolve" differently? (as to what made ancient greeks think about modes in a certain way, and what made modern people think about keys in a different way?)



according to my college text, Techniques of 20th century composition, a guide to the materials of modern music:

" The aeolian mode exists in conventional music theory as natural minor". Also as it analyzes a piece by Debussy, it explains: " Whether the mode is identified as Aeolian or natural minor is of no consequence".

Quote by GoDrex
I'm having deja vu - again :P


hehe yeah, me 2
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 6, 2008,
#22
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Major Scale=Ionian

Major Key=/=Ionian (See "song 2")


But what made the "major key" be different from the "ionian" mode in the first place?
What made people determine what would the "Major" and "minor" key be?

Modes came before keys (I think), what made people choose the "Major key" as we know it from that?


I heard that song, it is kickass
#23
Quote by gonzaw
I heard that song, it is kickass
Thanks much.

A song in a major key is not restricted to only the 7 notes in the Ionain scale. Songs in C major often make use of the notes Eb, Bb, and Gb. "Song 2" demonstrates this, though in a minor key. The key is clearly D minor and most of the song is in the D Natural Minor scale. However, the section after the first chorus uses some Phrygian, after the second chorus, Dorian, and for the solo, some harmonic minor. Yet is is still considered to be the key of D minor since the overall tonality is D minor.
#24
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Thanks much.

A song in a major key is not restricted to only the 7 notes in the Ionain scale. Songs in C major often make use of the notes Eb, Bb, and Gb. "Song 2" demonstrates this, though in a minor key. The key is clearly D minor and most of the song is in the D Natural Minor scale. However, the section after the first chorus uses some Phrygian, after the second chorus, Dorian, and for the solo, some harmonic minor. Yet is is still considered to be the key of D minor since the overall tonality is D minor.


Kind of doesn't answer my question:

If you were to change only "Ionian" with "Lydian" in the first sentence, would those rules still apply? Lydian is a major mode, so why doesn't exist a key which is not restricted to the notes of its scale, but revolve around it?
I know it doesn't, but I am interested why, and why Renassaince (I think it was at that time) people decided it that way, and which things they took into consideration to do it...
#25
Quote by gonzaw
If you were to change only "Ionian" with "Lydian" in the first sentence, would those rules still apply?
That's kind of a ridiculous question; the key signature for C major suggests the Ionian scale. Anything out of that scale is written as with accidental.

In truth, yes, what I wrote still works if you exchange "Ionian" for "Lydian," but it's silly to think about that way.

If you're really writing something modal, you're playing a 1 or 2 chord vamp with minimal/no use of chromatic tones.
#26
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That's kind of a ridiculous question; the key signature for C major suggests the Ionian scale. Anything out of that scale is written as with accidental.

In truth, yes, what I wrote still works if you exchange "Ionian" for "Lydian," but it's silly to think about that way.

If you're really writing something modal, you're playing a 1 or 2 chord vamp with minimal/no use of chromatic tones.


I know it is a ridiculous question, but why is it a ridiculous question?
I tried researching,etc, and didn't find anything regarding that...

Cause I mean, the Greek modes were all the same, they were modes. What made people "choose" the Ionian mode as the scale in which the tonality of the major key would tend to?
Why didn't they create 7 different keys with their respective Artificial major scale (can't remember english name), Harmonic minor, and all other scales used, etc?
What made them think there couldn't be a "diminished key" based in Locrian for instance?

Is it about the mood of those modes, scales? Or some other reason?


This is not a theory question, but rather a historical one....