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Ive seen many papers on intervals and none of the seem to help me understand them. the only thing i know about them is that the are the space between two notes, but i know thats not all there is to them. Can someone help?
That pretty much is all that there is to them. It's just the number of notes difference.
like C to G is a 5th.
A to C is a minor 3rd
E to D is a 7th.
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yeah thats what i want tolearn are those numbers and names like perfect fourth and augmented 5th etc
Are you getting confussed becuase the interval between (E & F ) and (B&C)
are always 1/2 step ? They stay fixed in the key of C.
The key of C is your refference piont. The count starts from the note C.

Are the # or b confussing you ?

If you use the diatonic interval and start the count from G....to stay within
the maj scale interval you have to raise the F to F#

If you start the count from the note D....the 1/2 step between F# and G
gose to the mediant (3) and subdomidiant (4) .
You simply raise the C 1/2 step to C# to get the 1/2 step between (7/8)
Therefore the key of D has G# & C#

or this....1,2,b3,4,5, b6,b7 ?

You simply play the flat notes accordingly. Bascailly warp the major scale.

If you start the count from the C note , it would be ...C,D,bE,F,G,bA,bB.
Some people know it as the C natrual minor, C aerlian or C melodic minor (decending)

To get it to fit the major scale interval with those 3 flat notes
mmmm...I think if you start the count from Eb, it'll fit
Last edited by Ordinary at Jun 7, 2008,
Quote by Ordinary

Some people know it as the C natrual minor, C aerlian or C melodic minor (decending)

How the hell do you have a descending scale that's ascending? The C natural minor scale is never the C melodic minor as both contain different intervals. Also I'm pretty sure you shouldn't use natural minor and aeolian interchangeably.

~Taydr~
Ka pu te ruha ka hao te rangatahi.
this is why i need theory idk wtf you guys are saying
^ maybe look up a diagram of a keyboard. It might give you a better visual
Think of the black keys as the intervals between the white keys.

There's no black keys between the E/F and B/C and the pattern repeat
itself over and over again. I memorize 3/4 , 7/8 to begin and let it
sink in for a while..and keep it simple like that.

Like i said...some people do and some people don't.lol

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?scch=C&scchnam=Melodic+Minor+%28Descending%29&get2=Get&choice=1

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?scch=C&scchnam=Aeolian&get2=Get&choice=1
Last edited by Ordinary at Jun 7, 2008,
Quote by AzurPunk
this is why i need theory idk wtf you guys are saying

As a rule of thumb, Ordinary has no idea what he is saying as well. Listen to others; in particular I'd recommend the link that coffeeguy9 provided.
Quote by Taydr
How the hell do you have a descending scale that's ascending? The C natural minor scale is never the C melodic minor as both contain different intervals. Also I'm pretty sure you shouldn't use natural minor and aeolian interchangeably.
Melodic minor ascending: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8
Melodic Minor descending: 8 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1

He's right, even though it's kind of an asinine comment to make.

However, in modern music, the melodic minor is generally played 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 ascending and descending.

Quote by AzurPunk
this is why i need theory idk wtf you guys are saying

Quote by :-D
As a rule of thumb, Ordinary has no idea what he is saying
A solid 15 seconds of chuckling followed me reading that.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
A solid 15 seconds of chuckling followed me reading that.

Success!

I'm trying to help in your campaign against his information, it was the least I could do.
Quote by bangoodcharlote

Use me as an example.

Done.
Quote by AzurPunk
Ive seen many papers on intervals and none of the seem to help me understand them. the only thing i know about them is that the are the space between two notes, but i know thats not all there is to them. Can someone help?

Interval: the distance between 2 notes

A good place to start for learning intervals is the Major scale. Learn the intervals from the root to each scale step:

R - 2 = Major 2nd (M2)

R - 3 = Major 3rd (M3)

R - 4 = Perfect 4th

R - 5 = Perfect 5th

R - 6 = Major 6th

R - 7 = Major 7th

R - 8(R up 1 octave) = Perfect octave

If we were in C Major that would mean:

C - D = Major 2nd (M2)

C - E = Major 3rd (M3)

C - F = Perfect 4th

C - G = Perfect 5th

C - A = Major 6th

C - B = Major 7th

C - C (Root up 1 octave) = Perfect octave

Memorize those 1st. From there you can find the other intervals by making the distance between a given interval smaller or larger

Example:

C - E = Major 3rd

C - Eb = minor 3rd

* because a minor interval is 1/2 step smaller (closer together), than a Major interval.

Example 2:

C - B = Major 7th

C - Bb = minor 7th

There is more to it. But this will give you a start:

So in brief:

1) memorize the intervals in the Major scale ( from root to each scale step)

2) understand that you can find the other intervals by decreasing or increasing the distance of the intervals you've learned.

Once you have that..... learn the specifics about how to find the other intervals.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
No more comment about the natural minor scale?

Nope, I had limited space and that guy hasn't been around so he's pretty much outlived his usefulness.

Shred: Happy to help with the sig, and now you're assisting our campaign as well.
Why is everyone so mean to ordinary? I've actually read some posts of his that were good. Sure they needed a full 20 minutes of decyphering, but the end result was almost good.

To T/S
Your right. Intervals are just the spaces in between notes. The only hard part is remembering the names for all these distances.

Also rememeber that they can be the space between two notes played simultaneously (as in harmony) or two notes played one after the other (as in melody).
Becuzes i'm special...lmao
my grammer sucks... only intelligent people can figure it out.

As a rule of thumb smiley is a prick cuz he can't play

What you do mean ?
If I call an aerlian it's going sound different if i call it a natural minor.
but I thought if you take the relative minor of the maj and just start your count from there , that's how you come up with a natural minor.

so how in the F%\$@...are the interval between a natraul minor and aerlian different ?

well ya know i thought is was wierd too that a scale should be played different
accending then decending.

WTF do you mean I shouldn't, when i just did ??lmao
Last edited by Ordinary at Jun 8, 2008,
Quote by Ordinary
As a rule of thumb smiley is a prick cuz he can't play

What you do mean ?
If I call an aerlian it's going sound different if i call it a natural minor.
but I thought if you take the relative minor of the maj and just start your count from there , that's how you come up with a natural minor.

so how in the F%\$@...are the interval between a natraul minor and aerlian different ?

well ya know i thought is was wierd too that a scale should be played different
accending then decending.

WTF do you mean I shouldn't, when i just did ??lmao

First of all, it's Aeolian. And I believe that it's basically their functions that differentiate them. Aeolian is a mode, where natural minor is a scale. Someone with more knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote by JoshXXXXX
Aeolian is a mode, where natural minor is a scale.
While I've often stressed the difference between a modal song and a key-based song, with Aeolian and Ionian, the difference is not that important.

A modal song is very simple (1 or 2 chord vamps) because anything more complex wants to resolve to the relative natural major or minor scale. With Ionian and Aeolian, they are more stable, so they simple structure is not as important.
Quote by JoshXXXXX
First of all, it's Aeolian. And I believe that it's basically their functions that differentiate them. Aeolian is a mode, where natural minor is a scale. Someone with more knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong.

actually, the natural minor and Aeolian scales/modes are exactly identical. Same formulas, same sound, and the notes function in the same way.

Quote by bangoodcharlote

A modal song is very simple (1 or 2 chord vamps) because anything more complex wants to resolve to the relative natural major or minor scale.

They usually are, but they don't have to be.

The important thing is to understand where the tonal center is. If the piece contains no sharps or flats, and is centered around D...... its D dorian.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 8, 2008,
Quote by GuitarMunky
actually, the natural minor and Aeolian scales/modes are exactly identical. Same formulas, same sound, and the notes function in the same way.
ah okay, thanks for clearing that up.
Quote by TheShred201
Except that they don't function the same way, as Natural Minor is used for Key based music where as Aeolian is used for Modal music (from what I've learned--If i'm mistaken I apologize). Intervallically though, as is the basis of this thread, they are identical.

The notes in natural minor function in the same way as they do in Aeolian.

Ionian and Aeolian are the "modal" names for the Major scale and the natural minor scale. The way my text book puts it: "The Aeolian mode exists as the natural minor scale", it also states that "whether we refer to it as Aeolian or natural minor is of no consequence". Essentially, it says that they are the same thing, and that it doesn't matter which name you choose to call them.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 8, 2008,
Quote by TheShred201
Except that they don't function the same way, as Natural Minor is used for Key based music where as Aeolian is used for Modal music (from what I've learned--If i'm mistaken I apologize). Intervallically though, as is the basis of this thread, they are identical.
Quote by JoshXXXXX
First of all, it's Aeolian. And I believe that it's basically their functions that differentiate them. Aeolian is a mode, where natural minor is a scale. Someone with more knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong.
If your looking at modes as if they're scales...

In the aeolian mode, to keep it modal you must use only the chords from the aeolian mode (no V7 chords). Or else you wont sound modal and your progression wont point to any specific mode. This will still sound awesome, but it wont sound aeolian.

Minor progressions usually have an i-V7 movement in them, very rarely would there be a minor v chord. Aeolian progressions shouldnt have that major fifth degree chord. Also minor progressions sometimes have a #viio full diminished chord, which leads awesomly to the i chord. Aeolian progressions will never have a #viio chord.

It's not usefull to think that diatonic progressions can only consist of 7 chords. It's also not usefull to think that a song can only be just harmonic minor OR melodic minor OR natural minor. Normally songs in minor have elements of all three, thus why writing in minor is said to be more difficult than writing in major.

And to Bangoodcharlotte:
I dont think modal progressions can only have 2 chords in them, its just ALOT easier that way. Especially with progressions based around phrygian and progressions based around dorian. Aeolian progressions usually have 3 or more chords in them
Quote by demonofthenight
And to Bangoodcharlotte:
I dont think modal progressions can only have 2 chords in them, its just ALOT easier that way. Especially with progressions based around phrygian and progressions based around dorian. Aeolian progressions usually have 3 or more chords in them
It isn't a rule the way it's a rule that the note is never called A# in the key of F, but if you make the progression complex, it is most likely going to resolve to the parent scale.

Quote by demonofthenight
It's not usefull to think that diatonic progressions can only consist of 7 chords. It's also not usefull to think that a song can only be just harmonic minor OR melodic minor OR natural minor.
Listen to "song 2" on my profile for an example of a song using natural minor, dorian, phrygian, and harmonic minor.

Quote by demonofthenight

Normally songs in minor have elements of all three, thus why writing in minor is said to be more difficult than writing in major.
Major key songs often use multiple scales as well. Look at a blues song!
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Jun 8, 2008,
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It isn't a rule the way it's a rule that the note is never called A# in the key of F, but if you make the progression complex, it is most likely going to resolve to the parent scale.
Depends how complex. I've seen 5 chord aeolian progressions that resolve to that first degree chord, without sounding anything but aeolian.

But I wouldnt have a clue at writing a stable dorian progression with more than 2 chords.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
Listen to "song 2" on my profile for an example of a song using natural minor, dorian, phrygian, and harmonic minor.
I said NOT usefull. Alot of guys think that a song using the harmonic minor scale can only use the harmonic minor (and never the melodic minor or natural minor).

Also, your example, are you saying that song 2 has melodic elements of natural minor, dorian, phrygian and harmonic minor? or that the chord progressions changes from being based around dorian, phrygian and harmonic minor? Sorry but I CBF listening and analyzing it (allthough it probably is an awesome song).
Last edited by demonofthenight at Jun 8, 2008,
Quote by demonofthenight
Depends how complex. I've seen 5 chord aeolian progressions that resolve to that first degree chord, without sounding anything but aeolian.
You're missing the whole point about simple modal progressions. They're kept simple to prevent them from resolving to the relative Ionian or Aeolian mode. Of course you can have something complex resolve to the Aeolian mode!
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You're missing the whole point about simple modal progressions. They're kept simple to prevent them from resolving to the relative Ionian or Aeolian mode. Of course you can have something complex resolve to the Aeolian mode!
Its alot harder to be modal in the aeolian mode than you think. No V7 chords and no #viio chords means that the resolution is very difficult to obtain.
Quote by demonofthenight
If your looking at modes as if they're scales...

In the aeolian mode, to keep it modal you must use only the chords from the aeolian mode (no V7 chords). Or else you wont sound modal and your progression wont point to any specific mode. This will still sound awesome, but it wont sound aeolian.

Good stuff man, well explained.
Quote by demonofthenight
Its alot harder to be modal in the aeolian mode than you think. No V7 chords and no #viio chords means that the resolution is very difficult to obtain.
A lot of Celtic and Irish music is modal Aeolian.

Quote by demonofthenight
I said NOT usefull.
I was backing up your point...

Quote by demonofthenight
Also, your example, are you saying that song 2 has melodic elements of natural minor, dorian, phrygian and harmonic minor? or that the chord progressions changes from being based around dorian, phrygian and harmonic minor? Sorry but I CBF listening and analyzing it (allthough it probably is an awesome song).
The intro and verses use natural minor. The chorus is a hybrid of natural and harmonic minor because it contains both the minor and major sevenths (nat7 is implied by the A5 chord). The interlude after the first chorus is phrygian. The interlude after the second chorus uses some chromatic movement, eventually using a B(b5) chord. You can consider that to come from the D dorian scale or just chromatic movement. Unless you say something stupid, I'm not going to argue. That's all I remember ATM.
Oh lawd, a modal discussion without arguement or one calling the other an ass-hat....

Its the MT apocalypse
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Melodic minor ascending: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8
Melodic Minor descending: 8 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1

See, the way you wrote it was descending, the way Ordinary wrote it was ascending. I suppose I was just being a bit pedantic.

Quote by demonofthenight
Oh lawd, a modal discussion without arguement or one calling the other an ass-hat....

Its the MT apocalypse

I argue, and any one who disagrees is an ass-hat. Happy now?
Ka pu te ruha ka hao te rangatahi.
Quote by Taydr
See, the way you wrote it was descending, the way Ordinary wrote it was ascending. I suppose I was just being a bit pedantic.
To say that you must play the melodic minor one way ascending and another way descending isnt entirely correct.

First off, to resolve whilst writing minor melodies, you probably should use the major seventh as it resolves really well to the root just about a semitone about it.

If your moving from above the root to the a seventh just below the root, and you want to resolve the melody, you probably should play a major seventh (meaning harmonic minor) instead of a minor seventh. This produces a strong resolution to the root.

If you want to hit that major seventh (so you can resolve to the root) without moving from above the root (so you can move upwards in pitch, not downwards), you probably should use a Major sixth instead of a minor sixth. This is because the augmented second (same as a minor third) step the minor sixth creates with the major seventh is dissonant.

If you dont want to resolve your melody, you should use the minor seventh, as it doesnt resolve as easy.

If you want to play perfect fifth, try to use a minor sixth instead of a major sixth as the minor sixth leads better to the perfect fifth.

If you want to sound eastern, try to play that minor sixth note before or after that major seventh note. For the best effect, dont play a root note and keep that dissonance hanging.

This is why many people consider writing in minor keys more difficult than major keys. The only note out of key note in major melodies that I would use is the #4, as it moves really well to the perfect fifth (which can act like a second root; therefore resolving your melodies)
Threadstarter, GuitarMunky and Coffeeguy have the most useful information in this thread.
E to D is a minor 7th

And E to D# is a major 7th. Both are 7ths.

As a rule of thumb, Ordinary has no idea what he is saying as well.
I agree with everything he's posted in this thread (cept the part about you not being able to play).

To say that you must play the melodic minor one way ascending and another way descending isnt entirely correct.
Yet you listed a bunch of reasons to play 6 7 ascending and b6 b7 descending.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
Last edited by Ænimus Prime at Jun 8, 2008,
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Yet you listed a bunch of reasons to play 6 7 ascending and b6 b7 descending.
Yeah... but its not that simple.