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#1
so now that i am getting pro tools to record, im going to need an m-audio usb device and a good sound card to make everything peachy, correct? so after this, i already have production software, so i am basically complete my home studio?
#3
If you use ProTools, you need ProTools capable hardware.

how serous are you about recording?
If you are not going into this as a job or career, you don't need to setup for ProTools...

You can get by just fine with a program like Cakewalk Sonar (which is what I run in my studio)

Whatever you get, slick with it and learn it to get the most out of it.


As for hardware, you need good mics and interfaces.

The lower end m-audio hardware comes with ProTools M-Powered, a piece of software nothing like the HD version of the software. IMO, Sonar is better than m-powered.
Last edited by moody07747 at Jun 11, 2008,
#4
Anything Pro Tools that isn't followed by the letters HD is a complete and utter ripoff. Stick with native systems as Moody already stated.
#5
Quote by MrPillow
Anything Pro Tools that isn't followed by the letters HD is a complete and utter ripoff. Stick with native systems as Moody already stated.


+1
#6
Get a DigiDesign 003R, it comes with LE, well worth the money. Don't waste your money on hardware thats not capatible with protools, even if you aren't taking anything of this nature up as a career, its still not a reason to waste your money, I dont really understand what point moody07747 was trying to make, maybe I missunderstood.
#7
M-audio cards work fine with Sonar too. I don't recommend getting ProTools, I've seen Sonar 7 widely used in studios and by producers so it's not like you need it.

If you just want to set up a small homestudio, my recommendation is to keep it as basic as possible while still having all the features you want. Sonar Home Studio is usually perfectly capable of fulfilling all your home studio needs (its a more basic version of the producer/studio editions, while still retaining plugin compatability and ofcourse recording capability).
My Gear:

Guitars:
Ibanez RG 7 EXFX (27'' scale, 2x EMG 707)

Amp:
Mesa/Boogie Studio .20 Caliber

Recording:
Line 6 Studio POD GX
#8
I'm yet to see a professional studio use anything other than Logic or Protools. I completely disagree that Sonar 7 with an M-Audio soundcard (i'm guessing your refering to the Audiophile series?) could in anyway compete with even a basic protools/digidesign setup. It is a matter of opinion, there aren't any rights or wrongs, but if you compare the features its hard to argue in favour of the Sonar setup in this case.
#9
I never said that the Sonar+Audiophile card would compete with a digidesign or protools setup. Running protools usually means you already have really good hardware capable of recording and mixing, whereas if its just for a home studio I really dont see the need on spending all that money for a load of features you'll never use.

Which is why I said it, it is after all in the context of this topic, the OP wanting a decent recording setup.
My Gear:

Guitars:
Ibanez RG 7 EXFX (27'' scale, 2x EMG 707)

Amp:
Mesa/Boogie Studio .20 Caliber

Recording:
Line 6 Studio POD GX
#10
The M-audio usb device will be your soundcard. The M-audio fast track is inexpensive but only has 1 mic preamp that doesn't supply phantom power (can't use a condenser mic), and a 1/4" TS jack that allows you to connect your guitar straight to it as well as line level signals. If you want to record whats coming out of your amp you'll need a mic as well. I recommend the Shure SM57. It's cheap, durable, and considered a standard for mic'ing up guitar cabs.

Hope this helps.
#11
I personally would not use a USB connection - leave that for slower data transfers (dongles, 2ndary external hard-drives, mouse/keyboard) get a firewire connection because it will be a much faster connection... M-audio makes some okay stuff - but blah it's not great.

If you want studio quality get a high end sound card or interface...

$$ is key - know your budget and stay within it by researching online for the best reviewed product that is the most cost effective.

If you want a home studio your going to have some saving up to do (no offense) it takes a good $3 - $4 thousand dollar budget to get in "home studio budget"

1) Interface ($500 - $1000)
2) Monitors ($300 - $1000)
3) PC / MAC ($1000 - $5000) - Go with MAC
4) Software ($300 - $600) - If you go with MAC get Logic Pro
5) Preamps ($300 - $1000) - I run JoeMeek OneQ (these are not necessary)
6) Condenser Mic ($300 - $1000) For a cheap great solution - Rode NT1A
7) Dynamic Mic ($50 - $200) - Shure SM57, Shure SM58
8) Cables ($100+) - You need High Quality XLR & 1/4 Inch Cables
9) Headphones ($50 - $300)
10) Plugins ($You're Years Salary...) - If you want the professional plugins your going to be paying a lot... Waves makes a good set, UAD is the best in my opinion...

Good luck and hope you saved up
#12
Quote by f*ck 0ff
I'm yet to see a professional studio use anything other than Logic or Protools. I completely disagree that Sonar 7 with an M-Audio soundcard (i'm guessing your refering to the Audiophile series?) could in anyway compete with even a basic protools/digidesign setup. It is a matter of opinion, there aren't any rights or wrongs, but if you compare the features its hard to argue in favour of the Sonar setup in this case.



You're missing 1 key aspect of this. Professional studios ARE using Pro Tools, but they are using Pro Tools HD. Multi-thousand dollar systems that run on non-native DSP with specific very high end hardware front end systems they need to function. These Pro Tools setups ARE great, and hardly anything can compare to them. Too bad they set you back at least 20k for a minimal rig.


Pro Tools LE, is NOWHERE near the functionality of these systems. It runs on native resources, overtaxes your system for minimal output, and can only be used with inferior hardware to the other options on the market such as MOTU, RME, Apogee, etc.

In the realm of low cost home studio DAWs, Pro Tools LE is a complete ripoff. It can easily be outdone in terms of sound quality and functionality by native systems running other DAW software.
#13
Well functionality .. the Pro Tools LE does a lot really...

But using the computers system is dead on... your computer has to be ultra fast to run Pro Tools at minimal performance.

You can make outstanding results with a LE setup so do not get discouraged and if you think it is right for you - go for it... with Pro Tools HD you will be buying the DSP card ... a interface and then a control surface - oops theres goes 15 grand...

Lol
#14
when worrying about this, don't consider price for software... i'll get any software, but for hardware i have a pretty limited budget...a couple hundred bucks. i won't need mics because i wont need to mic any amps or anything so yeah. if you could just recommend a good software-hardware pair.
#15
Lol - you shouldn't steal software... when people like you steal it... people like me have to pay more when we buy it (because they are making less profit) ... so please don't...

Are you planning on making electronic music because everything needs a MIC (vocals?)

for hardware get a M-Audio 410 ... its cheap (not great really)

But I would like to say if you don't need any microphone inputs then you don't need any hardware whatsoever - you can just buy a MIDI control (like a keyboard) that plugs in through USB..

So theres no reason to pay anything. You must need mics... every home studio needs mics

Oh and dont steal software please
#16
It depends on what kind of interface you have. With my MBox 2, I have two monitors for the two outputs (stereo set-up) so the sound card is pretty much unimportant.
#18
Quote by ovdojoey
Lol - you shouldn't steal software... when people like you steal it... people like me have to pay more when we buy it (because they are making less profit) ... so please don't...

Are you planning on making electronic music because everything needs a MIC (vocals?)

for hardware get a M-Audio 410 ... its cheap (not great really)

But I would like to say if you don't need any microphone inputs then you don't need any hardware whatsoever - you can just buy a MIDI control (like a keyboard) that plugs in through USB..

So theres no reason to pay anything. You must need mics... every home studio needs mics

Oh and dont steal software please


lol don't worry, price isn't a stipulation for software because my parents are going to buy it for me when i get my laptop
#20
Quote by ovdojoey
the MBox2 is your soundcard...

What do you mean?

Yeah, thats the idea of an m-box or any interface for that matter, it performs all the features of a sound card, allowing you to bypass your stock sound card completely.
#21
Okay, to all the people saying that Pro Tools LE is crap...


1. You're flat out wrong. If you want to get into serious recording later on, but don't have 20k to drop to get an HD system, then LE makes it easier to get in on it, and also helps you learn the program. You know, the only thing that really differs is where the software is running from, and the number of tracks, and a few other things.

The thing that is going to take your recording from crap quality to studio quality is plugins. They are massive for making your tracks sound good. I really think that all of you who say that LE is crap, should maybe re-consider what you're saying. Not everyong has 20k to drop on an HD system. Personally, I am going to....once I finish college and start a career. That is totally different. The main population of UG is younger teens to mid 20's looking to get into a small home studio, or even just to record their guitar tracks or band etc.

I really feel that if you are just wanting to do guitar tracks, then don't waste the money on PT, but if you want to do band demos etc, it's totally worth the money, and the experience is incomparable.
I've bought, sold, and traded more gear than I care to admit.
#22
Sorry to contrast up the "let's jump on the protools LE knocking bandwagon" theme, but I'd just like to mention something that's largely ignored here.

The main idea of ProTools LE and the MBox is that it can interact with the HD system. While it is a perfectly competant standalone hardware and software package, the princinple behind it is that you use it in conjunction with a HD system. That is the design, it is also the marketing strategy.

While yes, I agree that there are better "standalone" recording systems to be had at budget prices, if we take the MBox/LE system on its raison d'etre, it's unfaultable.

Furthermore, even when used in isolation, it's NOT a below average piece of kit.
#23
Apologies for the double post, but I thought of something else and the edit screen is freezing up.

In 3 years, I have never managed to crash Pro Tools LE, which is more than can be said about Cubase or Logic Pro. I did once have a crash on PTHD, but that was the mac's fault.
#24
The thing that is going to take your recording from crap quality to studio quality is plugins.


No it isn't. The think that makes your recording studio quality is learning how to use your mics, preamps, converters, and engineering skills to the utmost ability so you are left with a raw track that is good quality. You can't take a bad sounding track, slap a few free plugins in the FX bus, and expect studio quality sound to come out. You know what they say, if you polish a turd....


I really think that all of you who say that LE is crap, should maybe re-consider what you're saying. Not everyong has 20k to drop on an HD system.


I think well fully understand that. Which is why, we are recommending native systems, which for the same price or less can give you better quality (read: preamps, converters, outboard gear etc, the backbone of a good recording rig), functionality, ease of use, expandability, DAW control, MIDI integration, computer performance, etc.

We're not saying it's **** because for $20k you can get HD and be all pro and cool, we're saying it's **** because for the same price, you can get a native system running any of a vast plethora of options that will outperform Pro Tools LE both sonically, and ergonomically.
#25
The main idea of ProTools LE and the MBox is that it can interact with the HD system. While it is a perfectly competant standalone hardware and software package, the princinple behind it is that you use it in conjunction with a HD system. That is the design, it is also the marketing strategy.

The main idea for Pro Tools LE is to give musicians / bands a cheaper alternative to HD... why would anyone want an LE system added on to their HD system - thats non-sence (and no one would do that - it's a complete loss of quality - it dosen't run off a PCI card - it uses a completly different set of protools software - that just wouldnt happen)... Furthermore - you can't load HD files into LE software - its only the other way is it compatable... they are barely functionable together...

And Mr Pillow you are dead on..
That is crap for someone to say that plugins make or break the sound.. Ifyou want the sparkle and shine you get great outboard rack gear (preamps / compressors / limiters... channel strips ect) ... Plugins are a low end fix... thank you for clarifing that - I wrote a whole response to that post - but deleted it because my computer froze.

If you go to a high quality studio and pull up a session you won't see a track lined with plugins you will see a few sparingly throughout the session... that is because they record the sound with the best microphones run through the best channel strips and no more editing it needed to be done.

I would also liek to point out My Pro Tools LE has crashed NUMERIOUS times... and I run a intel based Mac core 2 duo with 2gb of ram...

LE runs off the computers resources which makes it limited - not to mention whoever said you buy pro tools for the software is also incorrect... Pro Tools software in compairsion to other peices of software is less advanced...it has less midi functionality then Logic Pro - it does not come preloaded with a sampler or samples - it is much slower than most other software applications... Pro Tools is great in a studio enviroment NOT because of the software because it works well with just recording... many producers use a lot of great quality preamps / racks / compressors / limiters which throw out the need for any plugins at all.

We are not flat out wrong at all.. We have examined the options / done the research and we can realize that once you go Pro Tools LE you can't go back... its very limited and there is just much better options out there...
#26
thank you for all the help friends but i am confused about what i'm being told... i'm going to record my band with it, my singer already has a mic so i'm not responsible for buying him anything ol
but am i being told that i should get pro tools or i shouldn't, and should be opting for sonar (which is the same as native systems?)
#27
Quote by MrPillow
You're missing 1 key aspect of this. Professional studios ARE using Pro Tools, but they are using Pro Tools HD. Multi-thousand dollar systems that run on non-native DSP with specific very high end hardware front end systems they need to function. These Pro Tools setups ARE great, and hardly anything can compare to them. Too bad they set you back at least 20k for a minimal rig.


Pro Tools LE, is NOWHERE near the functionality of these systems. It runs on native resources, overtaxes your system for minimal output, and can only be used with inferior hardware to the other options on the market such as MOTU, RME, Apogee, etc.

In the realm of low cost home studio DAWs, Pro Tools LE is a complete ripoff. It can easily be outdone in terms of sound quality and functionality by native systems running other DAW software.

So is the point you're trying to make that programs like Sonar 7/Cubase SX3 are better than protools LE? If not you've just gone on a completely pointless rant about nothing. I've done a fair bit of work with HD systems, we're talking stricktly about home recording. Which brings me back to my point that Protools/digidesign setup with LE could match in function some of the DAW's that you would pay double the price for + alot more for an interface of that quality. (not the M-Box but the 003R Factory is a briliant interface for the money) Like I said, its a matter of opinion, but your case is a hard one to argue.
#28
I agree with MrPillow 100%... I have used Pro Tools LE with digidesign hardware. I have used Cubase / Sonar with M-audio hardware and I currently run Logic Pro with MOTU hardware... I also intern at KDS Studios (it was Lou Pearlmans studio where he recorded Backstreet Boys and NSync) plus I do a lot of research and a lot of hands on work with recording so I know most of the in's and outs.

Sonar / Cubase / Logic are better than Pro Tools ten fold. The actual software runs faster than LE. As pointed out earlier - Pro Tools HD uses a PCI card that takes a huge load off the CPU strain allowing the computer to focus on external plugins and sampling. Pro Tools LE runs off the computer based CPU power which is fine but it is not as efficient at doing so as many other software platforms out there.

The software itself does not allow you to use ANY hardware unless it is DIGIDESIGN... M-Audio hardware uses a specific version of Pro Tools (M-Powered). Their is no audio editor built in and everything has to be done in the main editing window which is a huge hassle if changes have to be made to a particular clip of audio. The built in plugins are fair in quality but there is very few of them. The midi editor is weak in comparison to Logic Pro - which gives you a separate window to tweak around zoom and time everything perfectly.

The click track / function of Pro Tools bothers me - but the tapping function is very neat I must add.

I have just heard from many people that really hate the limitations that Digidesign puts on their products - it's not practical for a home studio, unless you have a great setup with great outboard gear... and even with the sonic build and preamps used in all of the LE product line is subpar to many other interfaces out there that can be used with any software.

Just my two cents thrown in... again.
#29
^ I agree that Logic Pro is more advanced in most areas than Protools LE, but Cubase and Sonar? wow, I could honestly go on for hours about the limited, impractical, and senseless editing functions in both of these programs. And in my opinion the M-Powered version is rediculously senseless and a waste of money. I do agree with a fair amount of what your saying, you seem to really know what your talking about. And btw, on my pc right now I have Cubase SX3, Sonar 7, and Protools LE, so there is no unfounded bias in my argument.
#30
Quote by f*ck 0ff
So is the point you're trying to make that programs like Sonar 7/Cubase SX3 are better than protools LE? If not you've just gone on a completely pointless rant about nothing.


Yes, thats exactly what I am saying. I have only limited experience with Cubase other than Cubase 4, but I have extensive use of both Sonar 7, and Pro Tools in both LE and HD flavors.


I've done a fair bit of work with HD systems, we're talking stricktly about home recording. Which brings me back to my point that Protools/digidesign setup with LE could match in function some of the DAW's that you would pay double the price for + alot more for an interface of that quality (not the M-Box but the 003R Factory is a briliant interface for the money) Like I said, its a matter of opinion, but your case is a hard one to argue.



Once again, I have to disagree. For the price of a 003R (lets just say $1000 for the sake of convenience), you could purchase any number of interfaces that IMO outperform it. Not to mention, with Pro Tools you are more or less limited to the 003R if you want an interface in that format. With a native system, you can run any plethora of options. I find the MOTU 896HD & Mk3, Presonus Firestudio's, MOTU Traveler, RME Fireface series, TC Studio Konnekt, all to be better performers in many aspects than the 003/002 type interfaces.

At roughly $1150 for the interface + DAW software, thats still enough to afford most of the aforementioned hardware + Sonar 7 or Cubase 4 in their home-studio oriented packages.


Like you said, it's only an opinion.
#31
The main idea of ProTools LE and the MBox is that it can interact with the HD system. While it is a perfectly competant standalone hardware and software package, the princinple behind it is that you use it in conjunction with a HD system. That is the design, it is also the marketing strategy.


The main idea for Pro Tools LE is to give musicians / bands a cheaper alternative to HD... why would anyone want an LE system added on to their HD system - thats non-sence (and no one would do that - it's a complete loss of quality - it dosen't run off a PCI card - it uses a completly different set of protools software - that just wouldnt happen)... Furthermore - you can't load HD files into LE software - its only the other way is it compatable... they are barely functionable together...

I think that BrianApocalypse was trying to get at is the portability that you can get from LE. E.g if you were recording a song a HD and you wanted to record somewhere other than your studio where your HD gear is then you can do it.
#32
There are programs that allow you to transport complete projects between most DAW's.
#33
Quote by tona_107
thank you for all the help friends but i am confused about what i'm being told... i'm going to record my band with it, my singer already has a mic so i'm not responsible for buying him anything ol
but am i being told that i should get pro tools or i shouldn't, and should be opting for sonar (which is the same as native systems?)


You are recording a band, therefore you need mics. Not just the vocalist has a mic. Drums need mics, guitars need mics (for a reasonable tone), and a bass at the very least should have a decent DI.

Anyway, the reason you are confused is that you are being told two completely different things, which is the problem of asking on a forum.

Basically, even if you're going to do each instrument on their own, you'll need 2-10 channels for the drums alone, depending on how much you want to manipulate your drums (A stereo drum mic recording can work out well for a demo provided your drummer is good and even dynamically, but I'd recommend no less than 4 mics - Kick mic, snare/hi-hat mic, and stereo overhead pair).

If the software is no object and you're getting a laptop, then I would suggest a Mac with Logic Pro (although I still think any Pro Tools system is a cut above the rest in terms of ease of editing), basically because the standard plug-ins that come with Logic are very good for home use. The new multi-band compressor is very good, as are Guitar Amp Pro and Space Designer. Also, if software is no issue, you should consider getting the Apple Jam Packs, because the studio drum kits are very versatile for demos provided you know about drum dynamics.

For hardware, I suggest the MOTU 896. You will probably start to run out of tracks if you decide to cut everything live, so I suggest doing your recordings in the following order:

Drums with a DI bass (and if you have enough tracks do a ghost vocal take with the singer as far away from the mics as practical), then lay down your rhythm guitars and any other rhythm instrument (if you can do them separately you won't have to deal with mic spill, when other instruments leak in to an instrument's mic). Follow with any solos, then finally the vocals.

You may want to also consider a headphone send unit with between 2-4 tracks so you can make sure when two or more people are playing that they can hear everything. A behringer will probably do the trick.

That's about all I got for now
#34
Quote by ovdojoey
The main idea for Pro Tools LE is to give musicians / bands a cheaper alternative to HD... why would anyone want an LE system added on to their HD system - thats non-sence (and no one would do that - it's a complete loss of quality - it dosen't run off a PCI card - it uses a completly different set of protools software - that just wouldnt happen)... Furthermore - you can't load HD files into LE software - its only the other way is it compatable... they are barely functionable together...


Bull****.

EVERYONE I know in some way that uses ProTools (about ~150 of 'em) uses an HD studio to record and then takes their files home to mix on an LE system. Because you aren't actually recording tracks, you don't have any influence over sound degredation, and any of the standard digi software plugins you use won't differ in quality to what the HD studio would provide. Also, if you've used a hardware effects processor in the studio, that will be committed to tape, and you won't lose that when you transfer to LE.

HP and LE sessions ARE interchangable, so I don't know where you've acquired your skewed facts.

The only things you have to consider when taking sessions between systems is the 30 voice cap on the MBox system and the plugins that might exist on HD but not LE.
#35
Quote by fleaflicker182
You are recording a band, therefore you need mics. Not just the vocalist has a mic. Drums need mics, guitars need mics (for a reasonable tone), and a bass at the very least should have a decent DI.

Basically, even if you're going to do each instrument on their own, you'll need 2-10 channels for the drums alone, depending on how much you want to manipulate your drums (A stereo drum mic recording can work out well for a demo provided your drummer is good and even dynamically, but I'd recommend no less than 4 mics - Kick mic, snare/hi-hat mic, and stereo overhead pair).

If the software is no object and you're getting a laptop, then I would suggest a Mac with Logic Pro (although I still think any Pro Tools system is a cut above the rest in terms of ease of editing), basically because the standard plug-ins that come with Logic are very good for home use. The new multi-band compressor is very good, as are Guitar Amp Pro and Space Designer. Also, if software is no issue, you should consider getting the Apple Jam Packs, because the studio drum kits are very versatile for demos provided you know about drum dynamics.

For hardware, I suggest the MOTU 896. You will probably start to run out of tracks if you decide to cut everything live, so I suggest doing your recordings in the following order:

Drums with a DI bass (and if you have enough tracks do a ghost vocal take with the singer as far away from the mics as practical), then lay down your rhythm guitars and any other rhythm instrument (if you can do them separately you won't have to deal with mic spill, when other instruments leak in to an instrument's mic). Follow with any solos, then finally the vocals.

You may want to also consider a headphone send unit with between 2-4 tracks so you can make sure when two or more people are playing that they can hear everything. A behringer will probably do the trick.

That's about all I got for now


I feel stupid asking this but why do i need a mic for a guitar/bass if i can plug it into an interface :S.

and i'm sorry but i refuse to get a mac i can't handle them...plus i game a lot so i'm getting a pc and most likely taking off vista and reloading xp...

and my drummer doesn't have a big kit he basically uses a snare, bass, crash ride, and another cymbal i can't remember what it's called.

also what is a DI?

p.s. thanks a LOT for all the help amigos.
#36
Quote by BrianApocalypse
Bull****.

EVERYONE I know in some way that uses ProTools (about ~150 of 'em) uses an HD studio to record and then takes their files home to mix on an LE system. Because you aren't actually recording tracks, you don't have any influence over sound degredation, and any of the standard digi software plugins you use won't differ in quality to what the HD studio would provide. Also, if you've used a hardware effects processor in the studio, that will be committed to tape, and you won't lose that when you transfer to LE.

HP and LE sessions ARE interchangable, so I don't know where you've acquired your skewed facts.

The only things you have to consider when taking sessions between systems is the 30 voice cap on the MBox system and the plugins that might exist on HD but not LE.


I was unable to open up the HD file I recorded at the studio on Pro Tools with that being said you may be correct because I was running Pro Tools M-Powered not LE...

You may be correct. But I was pretty sure it was only backwards compatible - meaning you can open LE files on HD but not the other way around.

And I don't get your point - It's great to do home mixing if you are the engineer but most people that come to a studio don't take home there work - they stay there and mix it - then send it off to mastering. In the studio I work at the artists come in and then they stay there for a few months developing their whole album.

And yes of course you wouldn't lose any quality with the sound clips already being captured - but again I don't know to many people that record on HD and mix on LE.... and you know 150... weird.

When you come into the studio you stay lol.
#37
Quote by JaeSwift
M-audio cards work fine with Sonar too. I don't recommend getting ProTools, I've seen Sonar 7 widely used in studios and by producers so it's not like you need it.

If you just want to set up a small homestudio, my recommendation is to keep it as basic as possible while still having all the features you want. Sonar Home Studio is usually perfectly capable of fulfilling all your home studio needs (its a more basic version of the producer/studio editions, while still retaining plugin compatability and ofcourse recording capability).



Sonar is my baby and I live by it. Pro-tools is quickly being overtaken by sonar because of cakewalk plug ins from what I hear.
#38
^^ Shh don't say it - People may get angry that we are suggesting alternative products

Lol... Whatever works best for YOU should be the only deciding factor in what software to buy... not my or anyone elses opinion, just do your research and hopefully you have the oportunity to try out different applications.
#39
Quote by ovdojoey
^^ Shh don't say it - People may get angry that we are suggesting alternative products

Lol... Whatever works best for YOU should be the only deciding factor in what software to buy... not my or anyone elses opinion, just do your research and hopefully you have the oportunity to try out different applications.

ovdojoey wins.

/end thread.
#40
alright thanks for all the help i guess it just sucks cause no one i know has any of this stuff so i can't check it out at a friends.. honestly i doubt it really matters they're both probably really good and i'm just gonna go for sonar cause of the lighter computer requirements
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