Page 1 of 2
#1
How many of you here practice with a metronome? I found this article and it went against everything I ever learnt http://adamrafferty.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/dont-use-a-metronome/

What are you view and opinions on whats being said in the article, I find it interesting.
radiantmoon is the toughest person I know. He inflects a sense of impending doom upon any who look upon his stone-chiseled face. The children run out of fear, while the men run for they know that the stories are true.
#2
Cute. Metronomes aren't meant to build your rhythm -- it's to make sure you play on time. If you can't play on time, your rhythm skills go to the crapper. No matter what you play, ever, you can put a metronome to it. It may have to change tempos at the right time and often, but the fact is, you're always playing to a time signature.
#3
he plays f***in acoustic guitar by himself. He plays in free time. He doesn't need a metronome because he's a pretentious ass
#4
I don't practise with a metronome, but I have practised with it before. I try and use all the different ways one can encourage more accurate guitar playing, not just with a bloody beep.
You can learn how to read music, you can practise with online metronomes, you can jam with a competant drummer who already has his timing down correctly. You can tap your foot, you can jam to a drum machine, or you can play along to software such as PowerTab and better still, GuitarPro.
I find metronomes to be so informal and unmusical. A drum machine will improve your timing and your ability to create music, the most important thing about playing any instrument.
#5
Metronomes are helpful when practicing a hard lick, but I doubt ANYONE uses them while performing. They're one of the most useful music tools EVER (after tuners of course)
Signature? What's a signature?

Quote by WlCmToTheJungle
the house burnt down
pics coming soon!
<.<
>,>


Quote by metalscott76
No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Best theory lesson EVER!
#6
Quote by AngryGoldfish
I don't practise with a metronome, but I have practised with it before. I try and use all the different ways one can encourage more accurate guitar playing, not just with a bloody beep.
You can learn how to read music, you can practise with online metronomes, you can jam with a competant drummer who already has his timing down correctly. You can tap your foot, you can jam to a drum machine, or you can play along to software such as PowerTab and better still, GuitarPro.
I find metronomes to be so informal and unmusical. A drum machine will improve your timing and your ability to create music, the most important thing about playing any instrument.


I see where you're coming from, but still, with all the methods you listed, you're still simulating a metronome. It isn't essential to preforming, but it's very helpful to have something keeping time for you. The fact is, you DO use you metronome, even if it's not a piano top ticker.
#7
Quote by mckraf99
he plays f***in acoustic guitar by himself. He plays in free time. He doesn't need a metronome because he's a pretentious ass


Agreed.

I mean, they are essential for developing the feeling of correct time and rhythm that you pretty much must have to play with other musicians right?

Sure he's a good guitarist, but coming out and just saying "don't use a metronome" is a little wrong, what works for him mightn't for the rest of us anyways.
#8
Quote by Womage

Sure he's a good guitarist, but coming out and just saying "don't use a metronome" is a little wrong, what works for him mightn't for the rest of us anyways.


He's basically telling you to skip a step. Rather than use a tangible metronome to check your timing, he goes right to pulsing and switching tempo. You can do it, but again, you're skipping a step in the learning process I always felt helped me greatly. He uses his mental metronome, which very well maybe trained or naturally good enough to keep perfect timing, but that's very rare.
#9
Haha, he's comparing relativity to African rhythm. What a doofus.

He's claiming that time is nothing but a 'big now moment'. That rhythm can't be definately measured. Idiot; the definition of rhythm is 'the movement of music through time'.

Things played in precise time, to this guy, are crap and heartless. Toccata & Fugue can't be danced to, so what's the point, right?

Playing music isn't about you, it's about the vibe and the magic. It's not about the person playing or writing the music, it's about intangible things such as magic.

This guy's an idiot.
#10
Quote by trsc
He's basically telling you to skip a step. Rather than use a tangible metronome to check your timing, he goes right to pulsing and switching tempo. You can do it, but again, you're skipping a step in the learning process I always felt helped me greatly. He uses his mental metronome, which very well maybe trained or naturally good enough to keep perfect timing, but that's very rare.



I don't agree with what he is saying entirely. Not you mate, I mean the guy in the story. He is being a little ignorant to other styles. I know I can't sweep pick that well or play in time as well as others, but I can write riffs better than others and I can sing and play odd timing signatures at the same time, while others can't. I try to work with what I'm crap at, but its so much easier to practice what you excel at, whatever it may be.

But then again, I agree with his statements about how using a metronome can make you sterile as a musician. It will help you shred faster and more accurately (and in shred music, you have to be accurate to enhance the emotion) but in the music he is referring to, you don't need immaculate timing. Neither do you need it in music like Deftones, Biffy Clyro, Interpol, Radiohead, Million Dead, Porcupine Tree, some of the best bands ever imo. You just need to be creative, important, emotional, and original. Mistakes make a song sometimes. But then again, that all depends on taste. If you grow up listening to Rustey Cooley and Dream Theater then thats what you will here all the time. But if you grow up listening to The Doors and Pink Floyd, your going to think totally differently. Neither are wrong, there just different.

I think using other methods of keeping time is important, not essential, just important. Whatever methods you opt for, whether its jamming with a band or playing the same technique over and over again with a gradual increase of tempo with a click, it doesn't matter. If it sounds good, however you reached that point is irrelevant. I don't this guys music so I can't say whether he has succeeded in terms of being a guitarist. But I know a shed load of guitarists who have never used a metronome, but have still obtained an award of excellence. I can't imagine Eric Clapton or Django Reindhardt sitting over a piece of music with a little click doing it over and over again, I can imagine them playing by feel and making sure they play it slowly and gradually increase their speed. Jamming with others, I'm sure would also be another way for those guys to improve their timing. But I could be wrong there.
#11
Quote by radiantmoon
How many of you here practice with a metronome? I found this article and it went against everything I ever learnt http://adamrafferty.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/dont-use-a-metronome/

What are you view and opinions on whats being said in the article, I find it interesting.


I'd categorize it as one of those "exceptions that prove the rule".

Sure, some people can completely bypass and break all the "rules and conventions"
and still be extremely successfull. And just because they are extremely successfull
doesn't mean they also have perfect judgement. In this case, suggesting that
nobody needs a metronome is pretty bad judgement. By FAR, most people are
going to find it a very useful tool.

I doubt anyone told Wes Montgomery his playing sucked because his picking
technique was the most bizarre looking thing they'd ever seen, but I don't think
there's been a lot of people recommending the Wes Montgomery Picking Style
to anyone either.
#12
Quote by radiantmoon
How many of you here practice with a metronome? I found this article and it went against everything I ever learnt http://adamrafferty.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/dont-use-a-metronome/

What are you view and opinions on whats being said in the article, I find it interesting.



Well the guy makes some excellent points, and his timing and feel are incredible. but I would still recommend practicing to a metronome.

Once you get past trying to define "correct" practice, you become more open to the fact that different people have different approaches. Learn from guys like that who are willing to share their point of view, but be open to other points of view as well. What works for one person may not be work as well for another.

Quote by 5/4

This guy's an idiot.


Na, hes not an idiot. He just has a different point of view. it works for him & he sounds great. When someone says something that is different from how you understand it, you will benefit more by taking the time to consider their point of view, instead of just demonizing them.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 11, 2008,
#13
heres the guys youtube page if anyone is interested http://nz.youtube.com/user/crescentridge?locale=en_NZ&persist_locale=1

For someone who doesnt like metronomes, he has amazing timing and groove.
radiantmoon is the toughest person I know. He inflects a sense of impending doom upon any who look upon his stone-chiseled face. The children run out of fear, while the men run for they know that the stories are true.
Last edited by radiantmoon at Jun 11, 2008,
#14
Quote by radiantmoon
heres the guys youtube page if anyone is interested http://nz.youtube.com/user/crescentridge?locale=en_NZ&persist_locale=1

For someone who doesnt like metronomes, he has amazing timing and groove.


Nice, thanks for sharing that. The guy really is great.

I still think playing to a metronome is helpful, but whatever, the dude can jam.
shred is gaudy music
#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
Nice, thanks for sharing that. The guy really is great.

I still think playing to a metronome is helpful, but whatever, the dude can jam.


lol who needs a metronome when you can play like that. I also find playing to a metronome helpful and thats why I found this guys article interesting. The point hes making is that our internal rhythm is better than playing strictly along with a metronome, and I can see his point. As a player you should be able to groove and have a feeling of time within yourself, you can see when hes playing hes no counting, hes just feeling. I think its good practice to play along with a metronome, but dont you think there comes a time in your playing where you can feel music well enough to not need one anymore?
radiantmoon is the toughest person I know. He inflects a sense of impending doom upon any who look upon his stone-chiseled face. The children run out of fear, while the men run for they know that the stories are true.
#16
Quote by radiantmoon
The point hes making is that our internal rhythm is better than playing strictly along with a metronome,


Our internal rhythm has to be validated and work along WITH an objective source
of perfect rhythm. In a group, if everyone were off doing thier "internal rhythm"
without being in some kind of shared sync, it would likely sound pretty bad with most
people. Some people will just have a better sense of internal speeding up/slowing
down than others.

Playing along with a metronome doesn't have to be robotic and stiff -- just IN TIME.
#17
Quote by edg
Our internal rhythm has to be validated and work along WITH an objective source
of perfect rhythm. In a group, if everyone were off doing thier "internal rhythm"
without being in some kind of shared sync, it would likely sound pretty bad with most
people. Some people will just have a better sense of internal speeding up/slowing
down than others.

Playing along with a metronome doesn't have to be robotic and stiff -- just IN TIME.



Im pretty sure the guy in the video could keep his time when playing with anyone. Its interesting how hes acheived such great timing without the use of a metronome. I did say I believe in practicing with a metronome, but after awhile you should be able to have a great sence of time without one.
radiantmoon is the toughest person I know. He inflects a sense of impending doom upon any who look upon his stone-chiseled face. The children run out of fear, while the men run for they know that the stories are true.
#18
I think what is important to remember is that while it's possible, even easy, to revert to your natural rhythm when you've practiced playing strictly, you can't suddenly be able to play perfectly in time if you've never put the work in.

That said, he can really groove. And I can identify with what he says about sterility - music that sounds computer generated it's so precise doesn't appeal to me.


I think the best way to develop good timing is to listen to really good percussionists and imitate & internalize their rhythms.
#20
Quote by ouchies
I do sometimes, but you don't HAVE to.


Guthrie Govan said he hated the metrenome and tried to avoid using it. Instead, he would play along with songs and jam as much as possible with other musicians.



And to be quite honest, I would rather sound like Guthrie Govan than Herman Li or John Petrucci. As much as I thouroughly enjoy listening to their music and admire them, its just not me. People who say the metronome is only way to achieve greatness are I'm afraid stuck in one zone. If that zone works for them, brilliant.
#21
Bad bad advice-don't listen to that article.

You need to practice with some kind of steady rhythm. It can be a metronome or the click track on PT, but it needs to be something.

Moreover, any kind of serious recording is done with a click track, so you need to be able to play along to one if you plan on doing that.
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote

Moreover, any kind of serious recording is done with a click track, so you need to be able to play along to one if you plan on doing that.


That's a really overbroad and by it's nature untrue statement, a lot of times if you record a full band the drummer won't use a click track, and even if you do it on instrument at a time many times only the drummer will use one and everyone else will use the drum track for timing.

as for this guy, it sounds like he learned rhythm from constantly playing with other musicians even starting out, in which case you might not need a metronome, if you don't play with other musicians a lot, you should probably use one occasionally.
make Industrial and/or experimental electronic music? Join my group!

Last.fm
Last edited by Kid_Thorazine at Jun 11, 2008,
#24
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Bad bad advice-don't listen to that article.

You need to practice with some kind of steady rhythm. It can be a metronome or the click track on PT, but it needs to be something.

Moreover, any kind of serious recording is done with a click track, so you need to be able to play along to one if you plan on doing that.




the only truly bad advice is to tell people to ignore this article. I think people can & should make up their own minds.

moreover, there are plenty of "serious" recordings done by serious musicians, without click tracks.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 11, 2008,
#25
Quote by radiantmoon
I did say I believe in practicing with a metronome, but after awhile you should be able to have a great sence of time without one.


Well, I don't know. I haven't reached the point yet where I feel like I'd be better
without it. Besides, I actually LIKE playing to one or a drum machine. All I can
see in it is advantage and no disadvantage. One thing I can be pretty confident
about is if I play with some people, I'll be ready to play to a beat. I tip my hat
to people who can pull it off without practicing it....
#26
There is a huge amount of recording not done with click tracks.

My taste in recording, with the exception of audio collage techniques (from bitches brew to trance to really good hip hop) is that which very accurately replicates the sound of a live performance. It's one or the other for me: Either the studio is used, fully, as an instrument or it isn't.

With that in mind, a lot of great music is played and recorded without a click. It sounds more organic to me if the tempo breathes a bit, and as long as it is tasteful and the musicians are all on the same page, it sounds good.


Plus can you imagine if this was played metronomically?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcjeZ3o5us&feature=related
#27
Quote by edg
Well, I don't know. I haven't reached the point yet where I feel like I'd be better
without it. Besides, I actually LIKE playing to one or a drum machine. All I can
see in it is advantage and no disadvantage. One thing I can be pretty confident
about is if I play with some people, I'll be ready to play to a beat. I tip my hat
to people who can pull it off without practicing it....


There are no disadvantages to playing to a drum machine at all. There is though to a metronome. There are more guitarists that I know and have heard of that do NOT use metronomes and are all the better for it. But, they use alternative, more productive methods of keeping time other than using a simple click. The slight, minor infractions that can occur whilst using a metronome are only prevalent if you never jam with other musicians and live your life as a 'bedroom shredder'. No matter how fast you can play, it is only accrobatics unless you can instill emotion and originality into your playing.
#28
Quote by AngryGoldfish
There are no disadvantages to playing to a drum machine at all. There is though to a metronome.


Not really. They both can be helpful.

There are times when I want just the click, not a full drum beat. There are other times when a drum beat is more appropriate. It just depends on you and what your trying to accomplish.

Anyway its all good.... metronome, drum machine, people...... whatever.
shred is gaudy music
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
Not really. They both can be helpful.

There are times when I want just the click, not a full drum beat. There are other times when a drum beat is more appropriate. It just depends on you and what your trying to accomplish.

Anyway its all good.... metronome, drum machine, people...... whatever.


Well I was saying that using a metronome without using anything else will leave you at a slight disadvantage. Its all good really though, its not the end of the world...

+1
Last edited by AngryGoldfish at Jun 11, 2008,
#30
using a met helps prepare you a lot for playing with drummers, etc.
but you dont absolutely need it
#32
Quote by AngryGoldfish
There are no disadvantages to playing to a drum machine at all. There is though to a metronome. There are more guitarists that I know and have heard of that do NOT use metronomes and are all the better for it. But, they use alternative, more productive methods of keeping time other than using a simple click. The slight, minor infractions that can occur whilst using a metronome are only prevalent if you never jam with other musicians and live your life as a 'bedroom shredder'. No matter how fast you can play, it is only accrobatics unless you can instill emotion and originality into your playing.


Well, I'd have to say you haven't realized how useful a metronome can
be when used properly. Like anything else, a metronome can be used improperly
(and often is as far as I can tell) and show little or no gain for it, or be a useful
tool.

If you want to work on your PRECISE timing, a metronome has no substitute.
Because it is an uncluttered click its the best way to tell if you are hitting the
beat right on, a little before, or a little after. If you develop the sense of
precise timing, then you can control EXACTLY when you want to anticipate, lag
or play right on the beat for musical effect and expression. Otherwise, you're
probably just guessing.

A drum machine is great too and definitely much better than nothing, but it's just
not as good of a tool for precision timing work.

Some people just aren't interested in working at that level of detail or don't think
its enitrely necessary. That's fair enough. It's probably not a necessity. But,
some people are interested, and it's really the best tool for that sort of thing.

A lot of people use a metronome as a stopwatch. Just setting it faster in order
to try and "beat it". The precise nature of the metronome just isn't doing those
people much good at all.
#33
Well this guy definitely isn't dumb or an idiot. I almost completely agree with him, except for the fact that he says, "never use a metronome." That I find very misleading. I practice with a metronome sometimes. It has helped a lot. But typically when I jam with myself or with others, we never use one. I agree that in most cases it kills the groove for certain. Music doesn't have to flow to a quartz crystal, but to whatever you want it to flow to. There's no right or wrong. I tend to use a metronome only when practicing by myself, and not always then either. I've asked other bands and local performers if they ever use a metronome, and most of them don't ever use one on stage, and only around a third use them for recording on CD. It depends a lot on style/genre too.
#34
Well I definitely think it depends on what genre you're playing. For example, that kind of groove playing that that guy is doing, it's probably not as important. Where as for something technical and precise like Dream Theater, it's very important.

However, I would say that for something like funk, it's even more important that you have a very good sense of time. Know why? Cause speeding up and slowing down is fine, IF you can control it. If you are speeding up without realising it and you can't stop it, then you need to work on your timing. If however you want to push the beat a bit and you do so, KNOWING that you're speeding up and the rest of the band comes with you, that's fine. So basically, maybe don't practice with a metronome, but you need to have a decent enough sense of time so that you can stay at the same tempo or speed up or slow down WHEN YOU WANT TO and be in control of it.

That's my 2 cents anyway.
sig goes here
#35
One quote I find interesting from his text is.....I have played with many musicians with “perfect time” and no groove. As well, I have played with groovers whose time is not the greatest, but their groove is happenin’!
radiantmoon is the toughest person I know. He inflects a sense of impending doom upon any who look upon his stone-chiseled face. The children run out of fear, while the men run for they know that the stories are true.
#36
Quote by edg
Well, I'd have to say you haven't realized how useful a metronome can
be when used properly. Like anything else, a metronome can be used improperly
(and often is as far as I can tell) and show little or no gain for it, or be a useful
tool.

If you want to work on your PRECISE timing, a metronome has no substitute.
Because it is an uncluttered click its the best way to tell if you are hitting the
beat right on, a little before, or a little after. If you develop the sense of
precise timing, then you can control EXACTLY when you want to anticipate, lag
or play right on the beat for musical effect and expression. Otherwise, you're
probably just guessing.

A drum machine is great too and definitely much better than nothing, but it's just
not as good of a tool for precision timing work.

Some people just aren't interested in working at that level of detail or don't think
its enitrely necessary. That's fair enough. It's probably not a necessity. But,
some people are interested, and it's really the best tool for that sort of thing.

A lot of people use a metronome as a stopwatch. Just setting it faster in order
to try and "beat it". The precise nature of the metronome just isn't doing those
people much good at all.


^ being precise at time isn't as important as being able to follow the rest of a band or ensemble though. If you're playing alone, you can change tempo as much as you want but if you are with a band thats would be a huge problem..

Not saying playing with a metronome is useless or anything, I'm just bringing up another point.
#37
^ That's really besides the point and sort of ignroes the likelyhood that if you
CAN play precisely in time you're MUCH more likely to be able to "follow the band"
than the opposite.

I'd put it this way: there's any number of musicians who, at the top of thier game,
are discriminating and sensitive enough to be able to hear precise timing. If you're
guessing and off the beat a lot, they can tell. If you'd like to play with them at that
level and not get scowls thrown your way, you'd better hope: A) You have an innate
sense of precise timing or B) You developed one using a metronome.
#38
I think that what I said pretty much somes it up. Whether you use a metronome or not is not so important, what's important is that you have control over your speed and you can stay at the same tempo or speed up or slown down if you desire, but you have to be in control of all changes in speed. It shouldn't be something that happens without you realising it.
sig goes here
#39
Quote by edg
Well, I'd have to say you haven't realized how useful a metronome can
be when used properly. Like anything else, a metronome can be used improperly
(and often is as far as I can tell) and show little or no gain for it, or be a useful
tool.

If you want to work on your PRECISE timing, a metronome has no substitute.
Because it is an uncluttered click its the best way to tell if you are hitting the
beat right on, a little before, or a little after. If you develop the sense of
precise timing, then you can control EXACTLY when you want to anticipate, lag
or play right on the beat for musical effect and expression. Otherwise, you're
probably just guessing.

A drum machine is great too and definitely much better than nothing, but it's just
not as good of a tool for precision timing work.

Some people just aren't interested in working at that level of detail or don't think
its enitrely necessary. That's fair enough. It's probably not a necessity. But,
some people are interested, and it's really the best tool for that sort of thing.

A lot of people use a metronome as a stopwatch. Just setting it faster in order
to try and "beat it". The precise nature of the metronome just isn't doing those
people much good at all.
#

Your probably right there mate about if you want to sound perfect and pristine, there is no substitute for a metronome. I agree. I also agree that some people choose not to live in a playing realm of that intensity. I'm not that patient, dedicated or disciplined. But some people are and I give them some serious cudos for it. I think you got the point nailed on head; There are different, varying levels of playing and if you want to reach all of them, you need to practise with a metronome and with a band or drum machine. But I don't think I'll ever reach all those levels, not until I learn how to be patient and dedicated!
I think if you want to be a band like Cynics or Dream Theatre, you NEED a metronome. I can't see any other way of reaching that kind of detail.
#40
Quote by AngryGoldfish
#

Your probably right there mate about if you want to sound perfect and pristine, there is no substitute for a metronome. I agree. I also agree that some people choose not to live in a playing realm of that intensity. I'm not that patient, dedicated or disciplined. But some people are and I give them some serious cudos for it. I think you got the point nailed on head; There are different, varying levels of playing and if you want to reach all of them, you need to practise with a metronome and with a band or drum machine. But I don't think I'll ever reach all those levels, not until I learn how to be patient and dedicated!
I think if you want to be a band like Cynics or Dream Theatre, you NEED a metronome. I can't see any other way of reaching that kind of detail.

That is obviously not true. The guy in the video and who wrote the article never practiced with a metronome and he has great timing and feel. Just because you dont use a metronome, doesnt mean your timing is going to suck and you wont be able to play with others.
radiantmoon is the toughest person I know. He inflects a sense of impending doom upon any who look upon his stone-chiseled face. The children run out of fear, while the men run for they know that the stories are true.
Page 1 of 2