#1
so, progressive music is meant to sound rather abnormal compared to most music due to the odd time signature and time signature changes - how is this true?


----------|----------------------
----------|---------------------
---------3|----------------------
------2---|-2--------------------
----1-----|----1-----------------
-0--------|------0--0-------------



sounds the same as



----------------|----------------
----------------|--------------
---------3------|----------------
------2----2----|-----------------
----1---------1-|-----------------
-0--------------|-0--0-------------


to me, so how can a time signature make a song sound that much different to be a new sub genre?

PS. tbh prog doesn't sound abnormal to me at all.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#4
And the drums will probably play a different pattern to fit with the time signature.
Call me Batman.
#5
Quote by ouchies
Different notes would be accented due to the rhythmic displacement.


+1

And the drumming would be different.


www.progarchives.com for all the info you could need on Prog.


It's not just the timing that makes thing progressive. It's influence, instrumentation, and style.
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#6
most prog stuff issnt bount to notes and rythmms, therefore to make progg you should make something that sounds right, but is off time in a good way.
Unless you make mastodon, they are entirely off.
#7
Progressive music has more factors to it than odd time signatures, its about mixing different musical aspects together, and making them sound right together, but in the given example, the accents will be changed, and it obviously isn't going to look very different, but it's down to exactly how it's played.
#9
honestly bornlive die UK, this isn't a troll post i just wondered what makes it so much different to have a different time signature. i just dont understand how changing a time signature can make that much difference =/

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#10
Quote by metallicafan616
honestly bornlive die UK, this isn't a troll post i just wondered what makes it so much different to have a different time signature. i just dont understand how changing a time signature can make that much difference =/

play a song in 11/8 or 23/16 and we'll talk again
#11
Quote by metallicafan616
honestly bornlive die UK, this isn't a troll post i just wondered what makes it so much different to have a different time signature. i just dont understand how changing a time signature can make that much difference =/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6VerKdcrOQ

Hear how the rhythmic pulses change all through the song?

Or in this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhedP71N9gQ

(both Progressive Metal, but the time sigs point remains)
#12
Quote by FarewellMemory
play a song in 11/8 or 23/16 and we'll talk again


please recommend some for me

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#13


When writing music you must acknowledge that some beats in a bar are stronger than others. In 4/4, the first and third beats are very strong. In 3/4, only the first beat is strong. In 6/8, I think its the first and the fourth beats?

Regardless, changing the time signature is only dont to make the peice rhythmically interesting. It's implied by stressing other beats.

If your just starting to write music, please write in 3/4. It's a million times easier.

Something tells me that half those guys that write in 11/8 or 23/16 dont know what they're doing. If your not thinking "one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two" (the ones are the stressed beats), or something very similar, it's sort of pointless to write in 11/8.
#14
what makes them stronger? playing them harder?

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#15
Quote by metallicafan616
what makes them stronger? playing them harder?
Sort of. Using more consonant notes on those beats, or making those beats last longer (as in quarter notes instead of eight notes) works as well.

I think the drummer also makes an impact on this as well, you know, he/she/trap might play the bass drum and the snare on those stronger beats and just the snare or just the bass on the weaker beats. Can you get the picture?

I'm really shocking at rhthym writing, sorry. I suck badly at drums and keeping my own beat.

EDIT: to the drummer out there that knows more about this than me, how do you imply a time signature whilst using heavy syncopation?
#16
Quote by demonofthenight

Something tells me that half those guys that write in 11/8 or 23/16 dont know what they're doing. If your not thinking "one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two" (the ones are the stressed beats), or something very similar, it's sort of pointless to write in 11/8.


well. I do know what im talking about.

I do think 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 for 11/ 8
Try "Windows to The Soul" by steve vai, for a famous artist using this time signature.
23 16,
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3
#17
If you don't get the point of prog rock/metal, and if you don't know what you're doing, don't write it. Please. The original prog rock movement of the 70's was formed by people who wanted to elevate rock to the level of other (erudite or not) styles of music. Don't spoil it.

Maybe someday. For now, start slow and make sure all the knowledge you rack up is rock solid.

Quote by demonofthenight
EDIT: to the drummer out there that knows more about this than me, how do you imply a time signature whilst using heavy syncopation?

If we're talking about drum kits, remember they are many instruments joined as one. They can go crazy with syncopation on the ride and the snare, while keeping a steady rhythm on the bass and hat, for example.
Last edited by CanCan at Jun 13, 2008,
#18
Quote by CanCan
If you don't get the point of prog rock/metal, and if you don't know what you're doing, don't write it. Please. The original prog rock movement of the 70's was formed by people who wanted to elevate rock to the level of other (erudite or not) styles of music. Don't spoil it.
Music is an aural art. It doesnt matter how its written; as long as it makes musical sense, sounds nice and feels nice.
#19
Quote by CanCan
If you don't get the point of prog rock/metal, and if you don't know what you're doing, don't write it. Please. The original prog rock movement of the 70's was formed by people who wanted to elevate rock to the level of other (erudite or not) styles of music. Don't spoil it.

Maybe someday. For now, start slow and make sure all the knowledge you rack up is rock solid.
.


i don't try to write what i don't know about, i always **** up like that, its why i asked in this forum and i think i get what people mean now.

Ps a consanent note is a note thats in key right? i swaer, if i'm wrong any more in this thread and gonna get a guitar teacher

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#20
ill give an example of how rhythmic stiff changes... take 3,4 time and 6,8 time... 3,4 time has an accent on every note : (1) (2) (3) (1) (2) (3), while 6,8 time has an accent on 1 and 4 : (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6 (1) 2 3 (4) 5 6

yeh? and 12,8 time is like 4,4 time but all the notes are played with triplets... so you can do more with it.. get what i mean?
#21
^I dont think 3/4 has 3 stressed beats
Quote by metallicafan616
Ps a consanent note is a note thats in key right? i swaer, if i'm wrong any more in this thread and gonna get a guitar teacher
First off its consonant. Secondly, it's extremely difficult to find a guitar teacher that knows theory. Personally I think guitar teachers are a waste of time and money, due to the internet.

And your only half right. Some notes are more consonant than others, in key notes are more consonant than out of key notes. Just to give a definition on consonance, its basically what sound nice and pretty and ordinary in music. Play a powerchord, you'll see what I mean. Now play a full diminished chord. Hear the difference?

The most consonant notes are chord tones, except for the root on special occasions.
Than comes pentatonics, which is why they're used so often.
Than comes diatonic/modal notes.
Than comes out of key notes.
Than comes microtonal notes, which is even a little out of my scope of understanding.

Theres also special situations where some notes which should be consonant actually sound dissonant (opposite to consonant). It takes alot of study to determine whats what.
#22
Some more examples may help you understand how the odd time signatures work.

You can hear one of the more uncommon time signatures in anything but progressive/jazz at about 4:36 in Ouroboros by The Mars Volta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slXpsCbMx1I

You can hear the switch between 5/4, 5/4, 5/4, and 6/4 sections rather easily in this case.

Also, at 2:53 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suMxtOORxcc

In this case, you can hear the 11/8 time. It would sound more "normal" in 12/8, but a beat has been dropped to very cool effect.

Hopefully you can kind of realize what an impact counting in odd meters can have on the listener. Also, progressive usually has many riffs/progressions that only appear once or twice in a song, and the sections that do repeat typically have variation.

I hope I got everything right up there; I've just started getting into progressive myself. Feel free to rip me apart MT regulars
#23
The time signature is changed to accomodate a rhythm that wouldn't "fit" in a normal time signature. Something with five, seven, eleven, etc. beats is much more efficiently notated in an odd time signature. Conversely, notating a standard 4/4 riff in 5/4 by simply changing bar length and adding extra beats where they don't belong is ridiculous.

By the way, prog isn't just stuff that's supposed to sound weird.