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#1
so my brother hates the idea of universal healthcare. he went off on me because i asked him about it. can some of you tell me anything bad about it? im just really uneducated with all of this.
#2
Lol mines free.
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#3
Your brother doesn't like getting free medical help... Yup, I believe we call that a retard.
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#4
There are some negative points on the effect on the economy and the quality of care, but over all it's almost certainly a positive. Now go do some real research.
#5
I don't pay for an open heart surgery. Yay.

But I'd be alright with 50 bucks / useless consultation. There would be less people who go to the hospital because they cut themselves with a sheet of paper.
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#6
-Why should people who can afford better healthcare have to settle for basic level government programs?

-Its not the government's job to get involved in people's lives like this. I don't want my hard earned money to go to somebody else who doesn't work as hard for it.

^Not my viewpoints, but those would be arguments against universal healthcare.
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#7
Quote by Mad_BOB
There are some negative points on the effect on the economy and the quality of care, but over all it's almost certainly a positive. Now go do some real research.


UG is research
#8
I don't think you're Brother wants Africa or the Middle East to have free health care!
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#9
What I find funny is how the people are fine with paying taxes to fund the war, but not for a better lifestyle for the majority of the country.

Sure, there are some problems, but look at other countries with universal health care (these include every other 1st world country).
#10
Quote by snipelfritz
-Why should people who can afford better healthcare have to settle for basic level government programs?

-Its not the government's job to get involved in people's lives like this. I don't want my hard earned money to go to somebody else who doesn't work as hard for it.

^Not my viewpoints, but those would be arguments against universal healthcare.


but we pay for other peoples healthcare anyways

and just how basic are universal healthcare programs? if at all
#11
Quote by StageLife30
UG is research


Lol.

More seriously tho, you'll do better by looking it up on wikipedia (yes, that most gloriously accurate source ). The best would be to find a good, neutral essay that deals critically with both sides of the story, or several essays each covering a different angle. The points generally covered are economic, personal, care level, and efficiency. If you look it all up and analyse it for yourself, you'll be much more capable of forming and understanding the arguments for yourself too.
#12
Your brother is obviously a dictator.
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#13
Quote by snipelfritz
-Why should people who can afford better healthcare have to settle for basic level government programs?

-Its not the government's job to get involved in people's lives like this. I don't want my hard earned money to go to somebody else who doesn't work as hard for it.

^Not my viewpoints, but those would be arguments against universal healthcare.


They shouldn't

Which is why in all countries with universal healthcare, there's always the option of private healthcare for those who want it. Also, the ideal of free healthcare is that it IS the best healthcare.

Second point, are you actually trying to suggest that some people don't work hard enough to deserve to live?

Anyone else gonna try and raise a valid point against it?
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#14
Quote by Alexander_BR
What I find funny is how the people are fine with paying taxes to fund the war, but not for a better lifestyle for the majority of the country.

Sure, there are some problems, but look at other countries with universal health care (these include every other 1st world country).

Lolz watchu talkin bout. US is best country cause we have God on are side! Are U unAmericans??? GO backs to Iraq AlQaidaman. Ima go pay mah taxes so it can be given to the military industrial complex0rs!

Actually paying serious attention to the outside world isn't a very American practice. We like to look at things our way, not how they actually are.

EDIT: and to the post above, I support universal healthcare, I was just providing some of the major points people have used against it.
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#15
Quote by Rankles
They shouldn't

Which is why in all countries with universal healthcare, there's always the option of private healthcare for those who want it. Also, the ideal of free healthcare is that it IS the best healthcare.

Second point, are you actually trying to suggest that some people don't work hard enough to deserve to live?

Anyone else gonna try and raise a valid point against it?

Don't close the thread for at least another hour if you're planning to. I'll post my 8 page pro-universal healthcare paper on this once I get home...
#16
^^Agreed. I'd rather pay taxes for free healthcare and pay for someone else's heart surgery than funding a useless war. Sure I have to wait a little longer to get checked up, though if it's urgent you really don't wait that long, but it's still better than paying an insane fee.
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#17
The main problem with universal health care is that there are just not enough doctors and other medical professionals who approve of it. They get sick of random people just coming in for every little thing. Take Canada for example. Doctors and surgeons and whatnot leave Canada and come to the U.S. because they're sick of universal health care.

Another problem is that sometimes people die waiting for a surgery they need because universal health care made it so they had to wait in line in order to get it.

I personally hate it, but i can see how people who can't afford health care would like it.
#18
Universal Health Care is definitely not free medical help. Its using money taken from citizens against their will to help people who they don't even know, regardless of whether they would choose to help or not. Frankly, I'm against just about any government program, all of this should be done by private charities if they so choose, perhaps a group whose intent is to aid people in acquiring health care.

The quality of the care also diminishes by a massive amount. People who would normally have to wait for a month or so for an organ to replace their heart or something to that effect, now have to wait through long stretches of time to get a replacement simply due to the inefficiency of the process. Look at countries who do have government health care, it doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.

Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to. To put it very bluntly, this is nothing more than glorified stealing to a justifiable cause. So yeah, I guess I agree with your brother, but I don't really know his whole view on the subject.
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#19
Quote by black-sabbath
Your brother is obviously a dictator.


he also thinks everything is a conspiracy and he listens to shawn hannity everyday. and he scolds me because i wont be voting for ron paul.
Last edited by StageLife30 at Jun 12, 2008,
#20
Quote by holden93
Universal Health Care is definitely not free medical help. Its using money taken from citizens against their will to help people who they don't even know, regardless of whether they would choose to help or not. Frankly, I'm against just about any government program, all of this should be done by private charities if they so choose, perhaps a group whose intent is to aid people in acquiring health care.

The quality of the care also diminishes by a massive amount. People who would normally have to wait for a month or so for an organ to replace their heart or something to that effect, now have to wait through long stretches of time to get a replacement simply due to the inefficiency of the process. Look at countries who do have government health care, it doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.

Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to. To put it very bluntly, this is nothing more than glorified stealing to a justifiable cause. So yeah, I guess I agree with your brother, but I don't really know his whole view on the subject.


All I got from that is 'I don't want to pay taxes'.
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#21
Quote by Badreligionrock
All I got from that is 'I don't want to pay taxes'.


I expected that.
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#22
Quote by holden93
Universal Health Care is definitely not free medical help. Its using money taken from citizens against their will to help people who they don't even know, regardless of whether they would choose to help or not.

Frankly, I'm against just about any government program, all of this should be done by private charities if they so choose, perhaps a group whose intent is to aid people in acquiring health care.

The quality of the care also diminishes by a massive amount.

Look at countries who do have government health care, it doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.

Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to.


Judging by the points you have made, i would assume you are also opposed to universal education, the fire service, the police service, unemployment benefits, and just about every other useful and beneficial government initiative. Do you really want to have to pay for your child's education, or think that your parents should have been forced to pay for yours?
#23
Quote by holden93
Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to. To put it very bluntly, this is nothing more than glorified stealing to a justifiable cause. So yeah, I guess I agree with your brother, but I don't really know his whole view on the subject.


There's a crapload of stuff your taxes are used to pay for without your will. Like lazy people on welfare. I'd rather pay for people's health care anytime rather than welfare.
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#24
Quote by holden93
I expected that.

well that is the only valid point you have.

there's still private healthcare available if you want better treatment but those who can't afford it aren't just left to die.
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#25
Quote by holden93
Universal Health Care is definitely not free medical help. Its using money taken from citizens against their will to help people who they don't even know, regardless of whether they would choose to help or not. Frankly, I'm against just about any government program, all of this should be done by private charities if they so choose, perhaps a group whose intent is to aid people in acquiring health care.
The governments job is to protect its people, providing for their health is key in that. There is no way private charities could ever fund the poor's health care.
Quote by holden93
The quality of the care also diminishes by a massive amount. People who would normally have to wait for a month or so for an organ to replace their heart or something to that effect, now have to wait through long stretches of time to get a replacement simply due to the inefficiency of the process. Look at countries who do have government health care, it doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.
It works in nearly every other developed Western nation, if you want fast elective surgery you can go private.
Quote by holden93
Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to. To put it very bluntly, this is nothing more than glorified stealing to a justifiable cause. So yeah, I guess I agree with your brother, but I don't really know his whole view on the subject.
Sigh, so you should be able to play God over whether someone lives or dies? No, good health is a fundamental human right, and as such the government should ensure every citizen receives it. You have in immature and selfish attitude and I think it is quite disgusting.
#26
Quote by holden93
Universal Health Care is definitely not free medical help. Its using money taken from citizens against their will to help people who they don't even know, regardless of whether they would choose to help or not. Frankly, I'm against just about any government program, all of this should be done by private charities if they so choose, perhaps a group whose intent is to aid people in acquiring health care.

The quality of the care also diminishes by a massive amount. People who would normally have to wait for a month or so for an organ to replace their heart or something to that effect, now have to wait through long stretches of time to get a replacement simply due to the inefficiency of the process. Look at countries who do have government health care, it doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.

Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to. To put it very bluntly, this is nothing more than glorified stealing to a justifiable cause. So yeah, I guess I agree with your brother, but I don't really know his whole view on the subject.
I don't think that it's stealing, it's taxing. Plus without having to pay for healthcare yourself, you can afford to pay the extra taxes.

I think we should let people who have Universal Health Care comment on the quality.
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#27
Universal health care is possibly the greatest achievement of the labour party in britain, of the labour movement in general and something everyone here should be proud of. No matter how hard the Tories and New labour try to ruin it.

I'm glad that the SNP are getting rid of prescription charges here, even if I do dislike the SNP.
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#28
I wish the US had universal healthcare...
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#29
You're all misunderstanding me. I don't expect them to be left to die, I would just prefer that all of this health care and welfare be handled by private corporations as opposed to the government. They're not the most efficient people in the world. There's also a number of things, like the fire service and the police, that can't be handled privately, and taxes are always going to exist for those.

I have mixed views on education. I see it as more of a privilege than a right, but I don't mind paying for that in the slightest.

Quote by Ranxston
There's a crapload of stuff your taxes are used to pay for without your will. Like lazy people on welfare. I'd rather pay for people's health care anytime rather than welfare.


Yeah, I really dislike those. I do agree with you though, I would pay for someone's health care way before I pay for the glorification of the city hall with statues and pillars.
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#30
Quote by meh!
Universal health care is possibly the greatest achievement of the labour party in britain, of the labour movement in general and something everyone here should be proud of. No matter how hard the Tories and New labour try to ruin it.

I'm glad that the SNP are getting rid of prescription charges here, even if I do dislike the SNP.


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#31
^What about the police and the fire department?

Should I have to pay the police when my house is broken into?

Or what if my house catches on fire, should I have to pay to have it put out?

Or if I get cancer, should I have to pay for that?
*-)
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#32
Quote by holden93
You're all misunderstanding me. I don't expect them to be left to die, I would just prefer that all of this health care and welfare be handled by private corporations as opposed to the government.

You honestly expect that would work? No way mate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem
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They're not the most efficient people in the world.
Neither are markets/firms.
#33
Quote by meh!
Universal health care is possibly the greatest achievement of the labour party in britain, of the labour movement in general and something everyone here should be proud of. No matter how hard the Tories and New labour try to ruin it.

I'm glad that the SNP are getting rid of prescription charges here, even if I do dislike the SNP.

+1
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#34
Quote by element4433
^What about the police and the fire department?

Should I have to pay the police when my house is broken into?

Or what if my house catches on fire, should I have to pay to have it put out?

Or if I get cancer, should I have to pay for that?


For the first three questions, see above. Dunno if you read that or not. For the last one, although you might not be paying for it, someone else is.
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#36
The proof is in the pudding. No one would argue that Cuba has a higher quality of life than America, however, poor Cuba, with Universal Healthcare has a lower infant mortality rate than America.
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#37
Quote by holden93
For the first three questions, see above. Dunno if you read that or not. For the last one, although you might not be paying for it, someone else is.

Yep. Someone who can afford to.
To be honest I didn't see how anybody could be comfortable with the idea of someone dieing simply because they could not afford medical care.
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#38
Quote by holden93
For the first three questions, see above. Dunno if you read that or not. For the last one, although you might not be paying for it, someone else is.
Do you really think a private corporation could provide free health care to everyone?

Taxing is the only way.
*-)
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#40
Quote by holden93
Universal Health Care is definitely not free medical help. Its using money taken from citizens against their will to help people who they don't even know, regardless of whether they would choose to help or not. Frankly, I'm against just about any government program, all of this should be done by private charities if they so choose, perhaps a group whose intent is to aid people in acquiring health care.

The quality of the care also diminishes by a massive amount. People who would normally have to wait for a month or so for an organ to replace their heart or something to that effect, now have to wait through long stretches of time to get a replacement simply due to the inefficiency of the process. Look at countries who do have government health care, it doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.

Sure, I don't mind helping people get homes, insurance, and whatnot, but only if I choose to. To put it very bluntly, this is nothing more than glorified stealing to a justifiable cause. So yeah, I guess I agree with your brother, but I don't really know his whole view on the subject.



i know, let's stop using taxes to make roads safer and then when people get into serious crashes we can make them all pay for their undeserved health care!

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