#1
Im putting together this little festival for next saturday.I have been planning this for about 3 months now.I got together 5 bands including my own to play.Ok here is where the blues start,one of the bands is led by one of the biggest assholes i know but they are decent and draw a crowd.The venue that we use has a certain cost and we agreed that every band would pay equally.This band earlier mentioned never got the money to me even after promising they would have it by so and so week,even to where they said the end of school.well school ended and still no cash.So I talked with every other band and we all agreed they should be ou tof the show.I tell the band they are out and they freak out on me.Some really good friends of mine are in this beand and I feel like a complete dick for this but my brain tells me it was a good decision.Does the band have a right to be pissed at me,I mean this just happened yesterday and like I said the show is on saturday.Just tell me your opinion cause im just bummed about this.
In our attempt to seek individualty,we have all become the same


Im so hardcore I could kick a puppy right now
#3
tell them to pay, its completely not fair if they dont and you cover for them...after the show theyd have no reason to pay you back
'I love her, but I love to fish...I'm gonna miss her"
#4
They shouldn't be pissed at you because they brought it on themselves by not paying you, but I think you may have handled it wrong.
It's important when you have been advertising a concert bill to do everything in your power to make sure that the concert that people see is the same one that you have been advertising.
A better approach would have been to let 'em do the show, then hassle 'em for the cash, in front of at least two of the other bands on the bill, who (because you will have arranged this beforhand) if the band don't pay you immediately, will start harranguing them saying things like 'Hey, we've had to pay and we're all in this together so why do you think you can get away without paying?'
Of course, if you are having a door or ticket charge, (you don't mention if you do, but I know I would ) and if all the bands are putting in an equal amount for costs, any profit made should rightfully be split equally between yoursef and the bands, so you could simply remove their share of the costs from their share of the profits before you pay them at the end of the night.

I advise you to get in touch with them, tell them they can still play the gig if they can promise to pay what they owe by the end of the event. Then set 'em up like I mentioned above to make sure that they pay up.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Jun 17, 2008,
#5
Quote by SlackerBabbath

Of course, if you are having a door or ticket charge, (you don't mention if you do, but I know I would ) and if all the bands are putting in an equal amount for costs, any profit made should rightfully be split equally between yoursef and the bands, so you could simply remove their share of the costs from their share of the profits before you pay them at the end of the night.



Why would you pay them at the end of the night? If they don't take the risk of making an investment, there should be no free rewards. Basic business concept. But I agree with everything else you said.
#6
Quote by Philbigtime
Why would you pay them at the end of the night? If they don't take the risk of making an investment, there should be no free rewards. Basic business concept. But I agree with everything else you said.


band payment=

band 1= 1/5 income

band 2= 1/5 income

band 3= 1/5 income

band 4= 1/5 income

band 5= 1/5 income - what they owed in the first place

there is no way band 5 could argue if everyone else paid, that simple. If they do try to argue get the other 3 bands to stick up for you. This is so silly, it's a simple solution.
#7
You're definately not in the wrong, but i would have done one last thing before i dropped them. I would have got them together and played it straight to them "this is what you owe as agreed, either pay up or you will be dropped, simple as that", or something to that effect.
"If you want beef, then bring the ruckus." - Marilyn Monroe
#8
Quote by Philbigtime
Why would you pay them at the end of the night? If they don't take the risk of making an investment, there should be no free rewards. Basic business concept. But I agree with everything else you said.

Because, whether or not they've paid their share of the costs or not, they have just performed for you, they've 'worked' for you.
Imagine the same situation but in a different setting. Imagine a guy who gets a job at a garage and is expected to pay out some money to buy the tools he's expected to work with.
He may be skint at the time, but there is work to do so the boss may have to buy them for him then take the money out of his wage packet before he gets paid for the work he's done at the end of his first week, but if the boss took out the money owed to him, plus the rest of they guy's wages as well, just to punish him for being skint in the first place, that wouldn't be fair would it.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Jun 17, 2008,
#9
But this is a different situation. If they put no money in, they get no money out, its that simple. I mean, I would have done exactly what the thread starter did. If 4 of the 5 bands paid me, I'd go to the 5th band and give them an ultimatum, either they pay up or they don't play. Obviously its nothing against them, but this guy stuck his neck out to put on this show, if one of the bands thinks they should be able play without having to pay they have a bit of an ego, and they don't deserve to play.

But yeah theres only two options here:

Option 1: If its a free concert, then they shouldn't play because the rest of you had to sacrifice a certain amount of money to use this venue and its not fair to you if they just get up there and play for no cost.

Option 2: If you are selling tickets, then they can play, but split the income 4 ways first to cover everybody's losses, then divide the remainder up 5 ways.
*Official Deadhead*

The times they are a-changin'
#10
Quote by trey-col89
But this is a different situation. If they put no money in, they get no money out, its that simple. I mean, I would have done exactly what the thread starter did. If 4 of the 5 bands paid me, I'd go to the 5th band and give them an ultimatum, either they pay up or they don't play. Obviously its nothing against them, but this guy stuck his neck out to put on this show, if one of the bands thinks they should be able play without having to pay they have a bit of an ego, and they don't deserve to play.

But yeah theres only two options here:

Option 1: If its a free concert, then they shouldn't play because the rest of you had to sacrifice a certain amount of money to use this venue and its not fair to you if they just get up there and play for no cost.

Agreed
Quote by trey-col89

Option 2: If you are selling tickets, then they can play, but split the income 4 ways first to cover everybody's losses, then divide the remainder up 5 ways.

which is basicaly what I said.

It's a touchy subject really, pay to play events tend to be frowned upon by many musicians, including myself, because it's a way that promoter use to make lot's of profit with very little work and without taking risks.
Y'see, idealy, a band should be hired for an agreed price, then paid the agreed price at the end of the night, regardless of how much money has been made.
If a venue hired a plumber for instance, they could hardly turn around to him and say 'Sorry, we had a quiet night last night so we ain't gonna pay you.'
It's exactly the same with a band.
Now, what many promoters do, especialy in large cities, is to contact a buch of bands (generaly inexperienced bands) and tell them that they can play if they pay so much towards the costs of the gig or sell so many tickets (in which case, many bands that can't sell the amount end up shelling out of their own pockets so they can still play the gig) and quite often their wage will be a percentage of the tickets they've sold. By doing this, the promoter is effectively getting the bands to do the promotion, all he's done is book the venue and contacted the bands, who then pay for everything up front for him, promote the gig for him and at the end of the night are lucky if they break even while the promoter makes all the profit.
This is a bad promoter.
A good promoter would be someone who checks out the bands he's booking very carefully to make sure they would be a good draw or that they would be good enough to put on a stage in front of paying punters.
Based on how much the venue costs to hire and a rough guess at how many people he can expect each band to attract, he can then make a rough estimate of how much he can afford to pay each band, which is the offer he will give them. He will then actualy 'promote' the gig. He'll do everything to the best of his ability to let everyone that could possibly be interested in the area know that this gig is going ahead and where to get the tickets from.
At the end of the night, he pays each band the agreed price and whatever is left after costs is his, even if it's thousands of pounds (which it often is if the promoter knows what he is doing) and he'll be welcome to it because he 'earned' it. He took all the risks, he put the work in promoting the gig, and he's entitled to that money.

I'm not in any way saying that the thread starter is one of these bad promoters though, it looks to me more like he's simply organised an event that gives his own band and a few others the opportunity to play at a decent venue without being in it for the profit. Still, to other bands this gig could look like the 'pay to play' scam run by many unscrupulous promoters, and as such, he should be doing everything to ensure that he doesn't get a bed rep from it.
#11
I mean, I generally agree, but when you're 16 or 17, sometimes the pay to play gigs are the only option. Most promoters won't stick their necks out for a group of teenagers who are most likely not really that great anyway (not saying the thread starters band is bad, just speaking generally). Not only that, but when you are younger, you generally don't have the business sense to think "hey, I'm paying some guy to let me play at his venue, and I have to do all the promotion, sell the tickets, pretty much do everything, and I'm not getting paid.... I'm getting ripped off." Its just not something most kids would think about.
*Official Deadhead*

The times they are a-changin'
#12
Quote by trey-col89
I mean, I generally agree, but when you're 16 or 17, sometimes the pay to play gigs are the only option. Most promoters won't stick their necks out for a group of teenagers who are most likely not really that great anyway (not saying the thread starters band is bad, just speaking generally). Not only that, but when you are younger, you generally don't have the business sense to think "hey, I'm paying some guy to let me play at his venue, and I have to do all the promotion, sell the tickets, pretty much do everything, and I'm not getting paid.... I'm getting ripped off." Its just not something most kids would think about.

Which is what makes it immoral, it's taking advantage of a person's inexperience.
I'm a part time promoter.
I organise multi-band events for my own band to headline, especialy an event called Quazfest every August in Burnley.
Every year, we take a number of bands, some that are pretty well known local or national attractions, some that are up and coming, just starting to build a decent following, and a couple of complete unknowns, usualy within an under 15 age group.
The biggest draws are promised a decent wage. The up and comers are promised expenses, some free beer and the opportunity to sell tickets for which they keep one 6th of the ticket price and the complete unknowns get the same deal but without the beer.
All of them know they will play in front of a large audience and that their name will be advertised left right and centre on posters, radio, newspapers, internet ect. but non of their spots are relying on how many tickets they sell or how much money they generate for the event. It's not their job to worry about covering costs, that's my job.
The ticket sales deal is there purely as an opportunity to earn some money while they're at it.
But what I always make sure of is that whoever I'm booking, no matter how well known or unknown they are, I always make damn sure they can pull of a good perfomance before booking them.
#13
Well its a shame that not every (most) promoters don't use that logic.
*Official Deadhead*

The times they are a-changin'
#14
i don't really like the fact that people on here often try to claim that pay-to-play is ever acceptable. it isn't. playing pay-to-play just allows promoters to continue doing it, and, furthermore, its a total waste of time. you gain nothing from it. no-one comes to see you who don't already know you, and you have to do all the work and take all the risk and still not see most of the profits. realistically, you may as well just put a gig on yourself. but then again, on the whole i find diy more satisfying, because (and there are exceptions) a lot of promoters are lazy, and i think i can do a better job for my band by doing it myself.

hell, you may as well just invite some people over to your practice space. you'll be paying to as many people as you probably would at pay to play, there's no risk, and you don't have to make your friends pay.
my name is matt. you can call me that if you like.