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#1
hi!!!

I have read the theory sticky of the forums and lots of other stuff I find here and there, I understand most thing I read, but there are sometimes small questions that come to my mind.

Ive been analysing today "The Great Southern Trendkill" song from the almighty PanterA, to me it looks like the song follows a minor scale, but there is something that I dont understand.

start of the song:

E: 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 (tonic)

between the "0-0-0..." and the verse: (lets call it "preverse")

E: 1-1-1-1---1-1-1---1-1-1---1-1-1 <---- b2 wtf!!!!

verse:

A: -------1-2-------------
E: 3-3-3-----3-3-3-1-2 (b3, chromatic step to 5, b3 and chromatic step to 2)

chorus is just powerchord on E: 0

SO:

looks like the song would fit a minor scale, cause I can find the following intervals: 1-2-b3-5

BUT, the "preverse" is a flat 2!!!! how the hell is possible that it sounds so cool? I understand chromatic steps, but the guy is playing b2 interval ONLY!!! shouldnt it sound wrong if he is using the 1-2-b3-5 intervals in the song?

my head aches
#2
he could have
A) changed keys
B) you may have done it wrong (probally not though so my be is A)
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#3
...it's metal. It's common to throw in chromatic notes. There's no mystery here.
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#4
Dimebag went phrygian on your ass.
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#5
that why they are ****in PANTERA...

No but seriously i read somewhere that Dime wasn't big on following the whole theory thing he just play what he liked the sound of which could explain why that it there,because he liked the sound of it.
#7
also dimebag used the blues scale which you can change if im correct. thus he can alterate all he wants in a song as long as it sounds good
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#8
certain types of metal aren't very famous for emphasizing or even following music theory
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#9
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
certain types of metal aren't very famous for emphasizing or even following music theory

No music "follows" or "doesn't follow" theory. Music theory is simply descriptive.

F8iscruel: What do you mean by change the scale? The blues scale is a specific scale like any other.
#10
Quote by :-D
No music "follows" or "doesn't follow" theory. Music theory is simply descriptive.


if you asked me to improvise over something, you would not be able to use music theory to describe my playing. in that case, i would not be following any sort of music theory, and odds are that it would sound crappy as well.
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#11
Quote by metal4all
Dimebag went phrygian on your ass.


you probably know that the phyrgian scale is 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

and he is playing a lot the interval "2" in the song, so no phyrgian here m8

b2 is a chromatic note in a 1-2-b3-5 scale but i thought chromatic notes only sound good if you "pass" through them, for example: "4-b5-5" <--- passing from 4 to 5 interval, i just got annoyed cause Dimebag was using the chromatic note b2 alone
#12
Quote by :-D
No music "follows" or "doesn't follow" theory. Music theory is simply descriptive.

F8iscruel: What do you mean by change the scale? The blues scale is a specific scale like any other.

i mean i recall reading somewhere that the blues scale can be altered, changing notes. but i may be wrong
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#13
Looking at it, it looked like the F# was a chromatic note inbetween the F and G. So i assumed it was E phrygian. I don't know.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


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#14
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
if you asked me to improvise over something, you would not be able to use music theory to describe my playing. in that case, i would not be following any sort of music theory, and odds are that it would sound crappy as well.

Uh, yeah, I would; that's the whole point of theory. Whatever you play, I would be able to describe its musical structure and relationship to what you're playing over. The key, notes, chords, etc. would be described by theory.
Quote by F8iscruel
i mean i recall reading somewhere that the blues scale can be altered, changing notes. but i may be wrong

The blues scale is set like I said, but there are many notes thrown in by the players; blues is a very free style.
#15
Maybe I've missed something, but have you heard of "pitch axis theory?" Basically, the idea is that you have a note, E, in the middle, and about the axis that is E, you can "rotate" between various scales in E without sounding too weird (within reason). Dime simply played E Natural Minor and then "went Phrygian on your ass" (great line...needs sigged).
#16
Thank you Sue. I knew someone else had the same idea.
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#17
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
certain types of metal aren't very famous for emphasizing or even following music theory


stop posting
#18
Quote by F8iscruel
also dimebag used the blues scale which you can change if im correct. thus he can alterate all he wants in a song as long as it sounds good


He used pentatonics a lot, but I don't think he used the blues scale.
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#20
Quote by philipp122
He used pentatonics a lot, but I don't think he used the blues scale.

He did. For starters, the main lick from "Cowboys From Hell" is based entirely in the E blues scale.
#21
Quote by :-D
He did. For starters, the main lick from "Cowboys From Hell" is based entirely in the E blues scale.
The band's most famous song's main lick doesn't count!
#23
My bad... I've never even realized that lol.

Guess ya learn something new every day.
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#24
He used blues scales, modified pentatonics, and chromatics a lot, and rarely played straight minor scales. His riffs are often chromatically based and as such don't usually follow a minor scale (more often then not they are from the blues scale).
#25
And nobody ever said that a chromatic note had to strictly be used in passing. For instance, since we are talking about Cowboys from Hell, at the beginning of the solo, he's playing the root and b5 in different octaves. Now, somebody please tell me that that doesn't sound good.
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#26
Gotta love the tri-tone.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#27
He also had a lot of licks and patterns that didn't really fit, but he used them anyway because of the outside sound and because he liked them. In Dime's own words, "I just kind of go for it. I'm no scale god". He had these things called "symetricals", where he would play the same fret pattern on each string, which you can hear pretty much all over (Cowboys from Hell, Psycho Holiday, Great Southern Trendkill, Shedding Skin, etc). Once in a while he'd throw in some diminished licks (Walk, Revolution is My Name). Most of his riffs were either chromatically based (A New Level), or were out of the blues scale (Drag the Waters, Revolution is My Name, Cowboys from Hell, etc), almost all of them made use of the tritone..

As for his techniques used in soloing, they involved mostly legato, or licks with a few picked notes and a few legato notes. Rarely ever did he do straight alternate picking in solos (though his alternate picking technique was pretty precise, at least in rhythms). Lot's of "rock cliches", only he usually stylized them heavily. He had a few picking patterns that you can hear him use in a lot of his solos that are easily learned and applied to your own playing (some of them are in my file in the Ultimate Guitar Pro Exercises thread).
#28
I read a couple of his columns in a Guitar World and like everyone's been saying, there doesn't need to be theory behind it for it to sound cool - lots of the sounds in metal just come from chromatic or random, dissonant notes - like the first run in the Cowboys From Hell solo:

11-12-15-11-12-15 on each string going from low E to high E as sextuplets.
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#29
Quote by CowboyUp
As for his techniques used in soloing, they involved mostly legato, or licks with a few picked notes and a few legato notes. Rarely ever did he do straight alternate picking in solos (though his alternate picking technique was pretty precise, at least in rhythms).

I love that aspect of his playing, like the beginning run of the "Cowboys From Hell" solo or the first fast fun of the solo to "Domination". His alternate picking in solos was great as well; the final run in the "Domination" solo is frighteningly quick and precise.
#30
I learned recently that he was heavily influenced by Joe Satriani, and dusting off my Surfing with the Alien disc, the similarities were unmistakable, and it brought a new love of both guitarists to me ^_^

So, since that's more the style I go for when playing, and they are two of my favorite guitarists, I listen to both guitarists excessively, and I jam along to their songs a lot. I recommend it if that's anybodies goal.
Last edited by CowboyUp at Jun 15, 2008,
#31
Quote by thefoldarsoldar
I read a couple of his columns in a Guitar World and like everyone's been saying, there doesn't need to be theory behind it for it to sound cool - lots of the sounds in metal just come from chromatic or random, dissonant notes - like the first run in the Cowboys From Hell solo:

11-12-15-11-12-15 on each string going from low E to high E as sextuplets.


it doesnt matter what the hell hes playing, theres theroy behind it!!!!!!
#32
Quote by Captain Garry
it doesnt matter what the hell hes playing, theres theroy behind it!!!!!!

Damn, can't believe I missed that. Please, thefoldarsoldar, make sure you understand this.
#33
Totally. Just because somebody plays something by ear doesn't mean that it is beyond being described by music theory.
#34
Quote by CowboyUp
Totally. Just because somebody plays something by ear doesn't mean that it is beyond being described by music theory.
True dat! But, an unusual lick may not abide by the standard conventions.
#35
Quote by bangoodcharlote
True dat! But, an unusual lick may not abide by the standard conventions.

Dimebag falls outside of music theory altogether!!!!!
#36
Quote by :-D
Dimebag falls outside of music theory altogether!!!!!

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#37
Quote by CowboyUp
Totally. Just because somebody plays something by ear doesn't mean that it is beyond being described by music theory.
By the term "playing by ear" I presume you mean blindly playing random notes, slowly, until something sounds half decent?

That first riff is indeed in phrygian. It modulates to being based around G mixolydian in the next part and plays a chromatic m3 before the M3 and a chromatic M7 after the m7.

See, dimebag's stuff falls into theory.

And what is this "blues" scale? To my knowledge, blues mostly uses pentatonics with out of key notes added and bent to sound intune.
#38
Quote by demonofthenight
By the term "playing by ear" I presume you mean blindly playing random notes, slowly, until something sounds half decent?

That first riff is indeed in phrygian. It modulates to being based around G mixolydian in the next part and plays a chromatic m3 before the M3 and a chromatic M7 after the m7.

See, dimebag's stuff falls into theory.

And what is this "blues" scale? To my knowledge, blues mostly uses pentatonics with out of key notes added and bent to sound intune.

It's just a pentatonic scale with the flat fifth penciled in.
#39
I love it when people confuse theory as a whole with classical harmony conventions, classical harmony is a set of rules, theory isn't.

as for the song, he's using chromatic tones, expect this a lot in rock, or jazz, or the blues, or pretty much any modern music.
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#40
Quote by CowboyUp
It's just a pentatonic scale with the flat fifth penciled in.
I would have been suprised if there was a blues song that didnt use the flat fifth as an accidental.
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