#1
Ok, I realized that when you're in a certain key, the modes you use are different than the key you're in. I.E, I saw a comment on youtube on this video of Chris Broderick: http://youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=xkpZ645ztl0&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DxkpZ645ztl0 and it goes like this:

"Oh I know it's a 6-5-1, I'm just saying a 2-5-1 would be better. E Harmonic Minor isn't technically a key. If he's staying in the key of E minor, then he should be playing C Mixolydian, B Phrygian, E minor. If he's playing anything differently, then he's not in the key of E Minor. If he played an actual C Maj. scale, B Diminished Scale, and E Phrygian, he'd be in the key of Amin/Cmaj."

That totally turned my idea of theory upside down [and broke my heart, and hurt my mind]...wouldn't the modes stay in the same key?! Why is he using B Phrygian, C Mixolydian in the key of E minor?! GAHHH, explanation needed, please and thank you!
#2
I dont understand any theory


:'(
What the hell were you thinking?


i duno lol. tihs r liek wen i traid drawn maiself n teh t0ilit.

ROFL.

EPICPHAIL.

gess i cant dai.
#3
no Idea, this is news to me.

bangoodcharlotte we need your help!
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#4
In Sue's absence, would you mind if I tried to explain it?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#5
just to let you know, that comment was extremely confusing and not entirely accurate.

first off, you can't play C Mixolydian in the Key of E Minor. the tonal centre of the piece is E, thus playing any notes from the E minor scale would result in E minor, regardless of whether those notes began or ended on C.

second, if i am charitable and understand that he is trying to talk about scale shapes on the fretboard rather than the notes, then he's got it wrong again. the mixolydian shape that would start on C DOES NOT FIT INTO E MINOR. again, this is besides the point and is not the correct way to think about scales/modes.

so as a quick recap:

1. the tonal centre of what you are playing determines the name of the scale you are playing. For example, if you are playing C -> F -> G7. It would be quite clear that the progression is in C major. the notes of the C major scale are C D E F G A B. It doesn't matter where you start on that scale or where you finish, you will be playing in C Major. NOT A Minor. Not D Dorian if you begin on D. C MAJOR! which brings me to my second point

2. scales are not fretboard shapes. they are notes. thus if you are in the Key of F and are playing the F major scale starting on C you would be playing C D E F G A Bb. now that scale has the same notes as C mixolydian. but you are not playing C mixolydian, you are playing F major.

and finally

he said that you would be in the Key of Amin/Cmaj. you can't be in both of those keys at once. the "key" of a piece would be the tonal centre to which the piece wants to resolve. i'm not sure if its even possible to have a piece of music want to resolve in two directions at once. yes A minor is the relative minor of C maj, but all the means is that the two scales contain the same notes. apply rule number 1, namely that it is the tonal centre that determines the scale, and you will see that C maj and A minor are in fact completely different.
#6
What is a key? I dont get that bit. What does it mean for a piece of music to be "in the key of x"?
#7
Quote by hitman_47
What is a key? I dont get that bit. What does it mean for a piece of music to be "in the key of x"?


*facepalm*
#8
for a piece of music to be in the Key of X means that the tonal centre of the song, or what feels like 'home', is X.

for example, pick up your guitar if you can, if not try this when you get to one.

play C major, then F major, then G major, then go back to C Major. it sounds "right" doesn't it? it also sounds like C is the centre of the song. this is what it means for a song to be in the Key of C.

now major and minor denotes the Quality of that key. in this case the key of C major means that C is the tonal centre and that all of the harmonies and other chords will be based off of the notes of the C major scale. (forget any complicated chord subsitutions or key modulation for now, just keep it simple). likewise for C minor. Again C would be your tonal centre, but this time the harmonies and chords are based off of the notes of the C natural minor scale --> C D Eb F G Ab Bb.

if you want to learn more about it i would recommend learning about chord construction, the major scale and harmonizing the major scale. from there you will have a decent base to learn about minor scales and then later (much later) modes.
#9
The Domiant (V)Chord is the B therefore he said Bmaj.

The VI is designated as a Maj.
If you do chord structuring starting from the 6th degree of a minor scale,
the VI will be a maj chord. Therefore he said Cmaj

C lydian ...maybe ?

Remember, the interval changed. There's only 1/2 step between the V and VI
in the minor scale.

mmm have you seen other people or i write..
"I'll rip a phyrgian domiant over the V chord" ?

The phrygian domiant fits nice over the V in a harmonic minor scale...
Because the M7 in the harmonic minor....it's the same note as the 3rd
note of the phrygian domiant.
Last edited by Ordinary at Jun 17, 2008,
#10
If you're not playing modal music, you shouldn't be using modes.

Therefore if you are playing in E minor, you use the E minor scale. Just because you start the scale on C does not make it C mixolydian, as the tonal centre is E.
#11
First off it would have been C lydian. Additionally not every note has to be in key for you to be in a key.

Also, what this guy is saying is that if you use an entirely different set of notes, you will be in a different key. Brilliant.
#12
Quote by grampastumpy
First off it would have been C lydian. Additionally not every note has to be in key for you to be in a key.

Also, what this guy is saying is that if you use an entirely different set of notes, you will be in a different key. Brilliant.


hahahahaah nice breakdown.
#13
Wait....wouldn't I use E minor lydian, phrygian, etc. if wanted to stay in the key of E minor?
#14
Let's clarify two things:

1. If you're playing in E minor, you DON'T play C Lydian, B Phrygian, etc.
2. You don't have to play just E, F#, G, A, B, C, and D to be in they key of Em. it is perfectly fine to use chromatic tones. Yes, you're going "out of key" by leaving the seven tones in the scale, but you're still playing in the key of Em. For instance, the progression Em D C B7 contains both a D and a chromatic D# note, but it is very common to use a V7 chord rather than a v chord in a minor key.

Key refers to the overall tonality; it does not restrict you to seven tones.
#15
Quote by mattj2192
Ok, I realized that when you're in a certain key, the modes you use are different than the key you're in. I.E, I saw a comment on youtube on this video of Chris Broderick: http://youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=xkpZ645ztl0&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DxkpZ645ztl0 and it goes like this:

"Oh I know it's a 6-5-1, I'm just saying a 2-5-1 would be better. E Harmonic Minor isn't technically a key. If he's staying in the key of E minor, then he should be playing C Mixolydian, B Phrygian, E minor. If he's playing anything differently, then he's not in the key of E Minor. If he played an actual C Maj. scale, B Diminished Scale, and E Phrygian, he'd be in the key of Amin/Cmaj."

That totally turned my idea of theory upside down [and broke my heart, and hurt my mind]...wouldn't the modes stay in the same key?! Why is he using B Phrygian, C Mixolydian in the key of E minor?! GAHHH, explanation needed, please and thank you!


well that example is just a VI V i in eminor. typical progression using the Major V chord which is common in classical music.

What happens is in the V chord they make it Major because the 3rd of the V chord is the leading tone (7) of the key (when sharped). it just makes for a stronger resolution back to the tonic.

here are the chords ( the regular v chord is there for comparison)

VI: C = C E G

v: (Bm = B D F)

*V: B = B D# F#

i: Em = E G B


Notice the D# in the V chord is 1/2 step below the E in the next chord. again, this leading tone provides a strong resolution back to the tonic. (more so than the D natural in the minor v chord)

does that make sense to you? all that stuff about mixolydian or lydian is irrelevant to whats happening in that video.

its just a typical Em progression, with major V chord for the purpose of a stronger resolution via the leading tone.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 17, 2008,
#17
^C# phrygian, the third mode of A major.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#18
well, if you don't listen to what he is saying and hear the notes
he's playing and is showing to you slowly, then don't watch the
video anymore.

I don't have a problem with it ,as i didn't have any problems of him making refference
and comprehending what he ment in the first video as will.

I know exaclty what he's is playing...just watch his fingers and listen
to the notes he is playing, then play it on your guitar.
You tell me about it is...you seem to be familar with it.
#19
^^Ok, I'm not supposed to listen to you.^^

So to my understanding, the key that you're in has different mode names. Like in the Key of A minor the third mode is C# minor Phrygian, but then what would the other modes be, and can someone explain how the hell that works?
#20
So to my understanding, the key that you're in has different mode names. Like in the Key of A minor the third mode is C# minor Phrygian, but then what would the other modes be, and can someone explain how the hell that works?

The modes of the (natural) minor scale are the same as the modes of the major scale.

For A minor (ABCDEFG) you have A Aeolian, B Locrian, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian. These are the same modes as in C major.

For A major (A B C# D E F# G#), the modes are A Ionian, B Dorian, C# Phrygian, D Lydian, E Mixolydian, F# Aeolian, G# Locrian.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#21
Quote by mattj2192
^^Ok, I'm not supposed to listen to you.^^

So to my understanding, the key that you're in has different mode names. Like in the Key of A minor the third mode is C# minor Phrygian, but then what would the other modes be, and can someone explain how the hell that works?



Well C# phrygian is not "in A Major" as stated in the video. it is however "related" to A Major in that it shares the same notes, and the same key signature.

In C#phrygian your tonal center will be C#minor. Like the key of A Major there will be 3 sharps (F# C# G#), but the scale formula is different, and the sound of the scale is different.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 17, 2008,
#22
I told you about the D# (the second arpeggio of Bmaj / the V chord) in my
first post.

You ment Amaj ...not Amin....correct ???

The relative of CMaj is Amin

The relative of GMaj is Emin

The relative of EbMaj is Cmin

The relative of Amaj is F#min

like I said...stop watching the video becuase the people on MT thinks
everything he stats is BS.lol

If you want to learn what's on the video and he's showing you
how to get there...then listen to him.
Last edited by Ordinary at Jun 17, 2008,
#23
Quote by Ordinary
I told you about the D# (the second arpeggio of Bmaj / the V chord) in my
first post.

You ment Amaj ...not Amin....correct ???

The relative of CMaj is Amin

The relative of GMaj is Emin

The relative of EbMaj is Cmin

The relative of Amaj is F#min

like I said...stop watching the video becuase the people on MT thinks
everything he stats is BS.lol

If you want to learn what's on the video and he's showing you
how to get there...then listen to him.



I'm not trying to learn what's in that video, I'm trying to better understand a comment that someone left on the video. And this comment happened to confuse the hell out of me.
#24
Quote by mattj2192
I'm not trying to learn what's in that video, I'm trying to better understand a comment that someone left on the video. And this comment happened to confuse the hell out of me.


Just ignore it. Ignore everything he posts.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#25
Thank you... So if youre playing in the key of C, then the chords you play over will be of the C major scale? In whatever order, but of that particular scale...