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#2
yes and no


they have the same intervals but Cmajor can have acidentals where as modes are more strict in interval structure and and don't really allow it arguementatively.

Cmajor can be Cionian but C ionian can not always be the same a song in Cmajor.
#3
Ionian implies modal music, which is very rarely the case. Using the terms interchangeably is wrong.
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#6
Don't move onto modes until you understand how major scale harmony works. It's what I did and it was never 100% clear to me, but I went back to the major scale which is what I was recommended and now modes seem like a very simple thing. I hardly ever have the need to use them.

#7
let's say for ease you have like a 1 4 5 in Cmajor this is just an example.

you use CMAJ FMAJ GMAJ that can be ionian and major

but if you make the FMAJ, Fmin it could still be C maj but it cannot be C ionian

because it is a more intervals driven scale and only uses chords harmonized by the scale

and you can onlt deternime the mode nby the chord progression or lack there of

anyways i g2g to work

^ listen to him above major is where you want to start and modes are probably not as useful as you think they are

they just serve there purpose
#8
Quote by Archeo Avis
Ionian implies modal music, which is very rarely the case. Using the terms interchangeably is wrong.
How would you write modally in ionian? Everything resolves to the I chord in major scales anyway.
#9
Quote by Archeo Avis
Ionian implies modal music, which is very rarely the case. Using the terms interchangeably is wrong.

At what point does Ionian become Major then?

If i start with Gmaj and i say 'i am writing in G Ionian'... i add half a bar of DMaj, then go back to Gmaj7. By using the V, have i just started playing G Major? Or am i allowed to call this G Ionian?

What if i played Gmaj7 non stop for 16 bars... no, 64 bars. Then i put some lead guitar over the top using the G major scale, but on 3 seperate occasions i play a C#..... is this modal? or did those 'illegal' accidentals make it key based?

Why is it wrong to use the terms interchangeably? Why does it matter?

As you can see your post actually created a whole load more problems..... especially when the answer to the first post just needed a simple 3 letter word.
#10
There's no allowance for accidentals in modal music, so if you want to use them then technically you're using C major, not C ionian.

Also you'd generally use modes over a static backing or perhaps a 2 chord vamp, anything more complex than that and again you're into the realms of key-based music. Obviously it's less of an issue with ionian because it's leading back to the same tonal centre but it's best to get into the habit of thinking of things in the correct context.
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#11
I'm with branny + demon on this one.


Edit: and steven_seagull posted
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#12
Quote by steven seagull
Also you'd generally use modes over a static backing or perhaps a 2 chord vamp, anything more complex than that and again you're into the realms of key-based music. Obviously it's less of an issue with ionian because it's leading back to the same tonal centre but it's best to get into the habit of thinking of things in the correct context.


In that case Ionian is pretty much redundant. The reason for modes being used over a static backing or simple vamp is so they don't resolve elsewhere. But as Ionian is enharmonic (right term here?) to the Major scale this allows the progression to become more complex without worrying about it resolving elsewhere, so there's really no need to keep it modal.
#13
I think I've got it now...

You cant write a modally ionian progression and say its not major. It resolves on the I chord anyway, so why not call it major for simplicity?

But you can use ionian in an improvising sense. As in, over any maj7 chord you can pick to play ionian and use those major sevenths and perfect fourths.
#14
Quote by 08L1V10N
Is it true that C Major is exactly the same scale as C Ionian is?

simple answer....... Yes

Quote by lbc_sublime
let's say for ease you have like a 1 4 5 in Cmajor this is just an example.

you use CMAJ FMAJ GMAJ that can be ionian and major

but if you make the FMAJ, Fmin it could still be C maj but it cannot be C ionian


Keep in mind that while you will still consider the piece in C Major, it's understood that the chord is a "borrowed" chord from the parallel minor (C minor). So the F minor chord is never considered part of the key of C, and the "Ab" from that chord is never considered part of the C major scale.


I've seen it written in WIKI that "purely" modal music only draws it's notes from a particular mode, and I know this is what fuels the "modes aren't scales" rhetoric that goes on here. Keep in mind that its not a rule, but rather a historical perspective.
Modes came 1st so in early modal music all the notes do indeed come directly from the particular scale/mode. As the key system was developed out of the existing modes things like "borrowed chords" and "secondary dominants" became common. So at that point modal music developed into key based music. These developments freed writers from some of the limitations of early modal music, but the scales themselves are not different at all.



Modern musicians do use modes and include chromatic passing tones all the time and still successfully retain the sound of the mode. So even though they do use notes outside of the particular mode, they are still using that mode.


Keep in mind the TS's question is whether or not they are they same scales. The answer to that question is: yes they are exactly the same scales.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 20, 2008,
#15
Keep in mind the TS's question is whether or not they are they same scales. The answer to that question is: yes they are exactly the same scales.

I would agree with that, they have the same notes. But, when you change the chord underneath it changes the mode.

(Yes, I know you know this, I'm just trying to help the people who don't)
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#16
Quote by J.A.M
I would agree with that, they have the same notes. But, when you change the chord underneath it changes the mode.

(Yes, I know you know this, I'm just trying to help the people who don't)

What mode would it change to? Whatever mode fits the chord and has the same tonic?
#17
Quote by iimjpii
What mode would it change to? Whatever mode fits the chord and has the same tonic?


Like, if you were playing CDEFGAB over a C chord, it'd be C ionian.

But if you started to play the notes CDEFGAB over a D chord, you'd be playing D Dorian

Depends entirely on the context
#18
Quote by J.A.M
I would agree with that, they have the same notes. But, when you change the chord underneath it changes the mode.

(Yes, I know you know this, I'm just trying to help the people who don't)
Depends how you view modes. If you view modes as a way of writing chord progressions, no, that is wrong. If you see modes as a group of intervals you improvise with over chords, than yes, you are right.

Most MT'ers will disagree on how modes should be used. Which is why modal conversations are so damn interesting.
#19
Quote by J.A.M
I would agree with that, they have the same notes. But, when you change the chord underneath it changes the mode.

(Yes, I know you know this, I'm just trying to help the people who don't)


Kinda, but not exactly. its the tonal center that determines the mode


Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 = C Major
(not D dorian - G mixolydian - C maJ)

* you could mentally think of each of those modes if you want, but its more work and it will ultimately just sound like 1 key (C Major).... not 3 different modes.

If you had something like this:

G7- C7 - F7 - Bb7

Then G mixolydian - C mixolydian - F mixo - Bb mixo would be appropriate. ( you could also just think of the parent keys.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 20, 2008,
#20
Quote by demonofthenight

Most MT'ers will disagree on how modes should be used. Which is why modal conversations are so damn interesting.


They are?

Anything with "mode" in the title and >1 page of reply's has almost certainly
degenerated into pointless poindextery.

(maybe this reply will hit page2!)
#21
Quote by edg

(maybe this reply will hit page2!)


Fail, I win

Anyway, they are technically the same scale and listen to what other people said, it basically sums everything up.
#23
Quote by gonzaw
C Ionian represents modal music, and C major represents tonal music (I think that was the term).


They are the same scales.

"Theorists such as Edward Lowinsky, Hugo Riemann, and others pushed the date at which modern tonality began, and the cadence began to be seen as the definitive way that a tonality is established in a work of music (Judd, 1998).
In response Bernhard Meier instead used a "tonality" and "modality", modern vs ancient, dichotomy, with Renaissance music being modal. The term modality has been criticized by Harold Powers, among others. However, it is widely used to describe music whose harmonic function centers on notes rather than on chords, including some of the music of Bartók, Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, Charles Ives and composers of minimalist music. This and other modal music is, broadly, often considered tonal."

- WIKI
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#24
I would think something in C ionian is most definitely also in C major, but the reverse is not true. The Super Mario Bros. theme is in C major, but loaded with accidentals. Just my word on the whole thing.

EDIT: To TS, the scales are the same, but to be in C ionian is(in some cases) different than to be in C major.
Last edited by grampastumpy at Jun 20, 2008,
#25
* you could mentally think of each of those modes if you want, but its more work and it will ultimately just sound like 1 key (C Major).... not 3 different modes.

Yeah, that's how I was thinking
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#26
Quote by grampastumpy
I would think something in C ionian is most definitely also in C major, but the reverse is not true. The Super Mario Bros. theme is in C major, but loaded with accidentals. Just my word on the whole thing.

EDIT: To TS, the scales are the same, but to be in C ionian is(in some cases) different than to be in C major.



To be in C Ionian, is to be in C Major. However if your in C major and you use a borrowed chord, you are not in C Ionian.

keep in mind its not a rule that says "modal music only use notes from the particular mode", its a historical perspective based on the evolution of music / music theory.
The reason "modal" music didn't use borrowed chords or secondary dominants is because music had not evolved to that point. The Major/minor system of tonality developed out of the modes. it opened up new possibilities that hadn't been thought of.

Jazz soloists often use chromatic notes in their modally based solos. Had they read some of the posts here early in their development, they may have been afraid to do that for fear of it "not being modal".
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 20, 2008,
#27
Jazz soloists often use chromatic notes in their modally based solos. Had they read some of the posts here early in their development, they may have been afraid to do that for fear of it "not being modal".


Jazz is very rarely modal. Anything mode-like is generally a byproduct of the chord extensions.
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#28
Quote by Archeo Avis
Jazz is very rarely modal. Anything mode-like is generally a byproduct of the chord extensions.


The use of modes are not rare in jazz, and the point still stands. If you were to solo over impressions, you would be playing dorian. Using chromatic tones not found in the mode won't change its modal nature.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 20, 2008,
#29
^ i especially agree with the cromatic tones in a scale not changing the modality

i also saw this really good lesson where this guy would start with CMAJ scale and have a bass play C repeatedly while he played. he would eventually change to D and drone it untill it became the tonic and so on and so forth it was really coool to kinda hear a difference between them
#30
Okay, I'm sure this has been answered countless times in this thread, but for simplicity's sake:

1. The scales are exactly the same.

2. Ionian and major have different meanings and applications; therefore, be careful about how you use the terminology.
#31
Quote by :-D
Okay, I'm sure this has been answered countless times in this thread, but for simplicity's sake:

1. The scales are exactly the same.

2. Ionian and major have different meanings and applications; therefore, be careful about how you use the terminology.



I wouldn't say that their applications are any different. its just that modal music (pre common era music) doesn't include notes outside the scale basically because music hadn't evolved to that point yet. When the music did evolve, Ionian become the Major scale, and a new system developed. Regardless though, you apply both scales in the same way.
Every scale degree in Ionian functions in exactly the same way that it does in Major.
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#32
Quote by GuitarMunky
I wouldn't say that their applications are any different. its just that modal music (pre common era music) doesn't include notes outside the scale basically because music hadn't evolved to that point yet. When the music did evolve, Ionian become the Major scale, and a new system developed. Regardless though, you apply both scales in the same way.
Every scale degree in Ionian functions in exactly the same way that it does in Major.

I was referring to the fact that (for example) you can use any chord you want in a major key, but you can't borrow chords from outside the Ionian mode and still call it Ionian.
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky
To be in C Ionian, is to be in C Major. However if your in C major and you use a borrowed chord, you are not in C Ionian.

keep in mind its not a rule that says "modal music only use notes from the particular mode", its a historical perspective based on the evolution of music / music theory.
The reason "modal" music didn't use borrowed chords or secondary dominants is because music had not evolved to that point. The Major/minor system of tonality developed out of the modes. it opened up new possibilities that hadn't been thought of.

Jazz soloists often use chromatic notes in their modally based solos. Had they read some of the posts here early in their development, they may have been afraid to do that for fear of it "not being modal".
The first part of your post is pretty much exactly what I said.

I get what you mean later on. So like, playing a chromatic run from A to B over a Dm G vamp doesn't automatically undorianize it is what you're saying right? This is something I'll have to think over and you make a good point.
#34
The way I distinguish a song in C major from a song in C Ionian is like this:

A song in C Ionian would be something very simple, such as a regular I IV V I progression. In this situation, the root (C) will always stay as the tonal center of what is being played.

A song in C major, however, might have a section that has that same I IV V I progression, but then go into a section that does something like iim V iiim IV, and linger on that idea for a bit. The iim V iiim IV section wouldn't really imply that the tonal center is still C, despite the fact that all of the notes used by those chords would be from the C major scale. That section would most definitely not be in C Ionian, but still could be C major.

To sum it up, I view key-based/tonal music as being able to switch between the tonalities created by the different modes within a single piece, thus allowing for more variety and dynamics in terms of note choice. For example, you could have a part of a song that hangs in a C Ionian sound for a bit, then goes off to an E Phrygian sound, and then to A Aeolian, and then back to C Ionian, and that song would be, overall in C major.
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#35
Quote by seedmole
The way I distinguish a song in C major from a song in C Ionian is like this:

A song in C Ionian would be something very simple, such as a regular I IV V I progression. In this situation, the root (C) will always stay as the tonal center of what is being played.

That would just be C Major. There's really no reason to even refer to Ionian here even though technically you could say its an Ionian progression as well. Thats really redundant though and unnecessary for any practical use.

Quote by seedmole

A song in C major, however, might have a section that has that same I IV V I progression, but then go into a section that does something like iim V iiim IV, and linger on that idea for a bit. The iim V iiim IV section wouldn't really imply that the tonal center is still C, despite the fact that all of the notes used by those chords would be from the C major scale. That section would most definitely not be in C Ionian, but still could be C major.

To sum it up, I view key-based/tonal music as being able to switch between the tonalities created by the different modes within a single piece, thus allowing for more variety and dynamics in terms of note choice. For example, you could have a part of a song that hangs in a C Ionian sound for a bit, then goes off to an E Phrygian sound, and then to A Aeolian, and then back to C Ionian, and that song would be, overall in C major.


You can switch between the different modes in "modal" music as well. Your just "changing modes".


Here is were you are not in Ionian:

I IV V/V V I


now you would still be in Major there, but its understood that the V/V is not part of the key. The 3rd in the V/V chord will not come from the original key.

This use of secondary dominants developed in the common practice period. So you wont see anything like it in the modal music of earlier times.

Music today draws from all of the resources of the past so it is not uncommon to see aspects of "key based" and "modal" music intermingled in one piece of music.


Quote by grampastumpy
The first part of your post is pretty much exactly what I said.

I get what you mean later on. So like, playing a chromatic run from A to B over a Dm G vamp doesn't automatically undorianize it is what you're saying right? This is something I'll have to think over and you make a good point.

Right thats what im saying.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 20, 2008,
#36
Where's BGC, she's the only I trust around here. Atleast I think BGC is a she.
#37
Quote by GuitarMunky
That would just be C Major. There's really no reason to even refer to Ionian here even though technically you could say its an Ionian progression.


Yeah, that's one problem that people have with Ionian -- that all (if I'm not mistaken) Ionian pieces could just as well be described as being in that same major key. I'm just trying to illustrate an example of something in C major that would also most definitely qualify for being C Ionian.


Quote by GuitarMunky
You can switch between the different modes in "modal" music as well. Your just "changing modes".


True, but I find it much easier to describe something as just being in either the parent major or minor key. It's easier to say C major than C Ionian to F Lydian to D Dorian to G mixolydian, back to F lydian, A Aeolian, E Phrygian, and then finally C Ionian, if you're explaining a long piece that changes tonality throughout, but without changing key signatures.

Quote by GuitarMunky
Here is were you are not in Ionian:

I IV V/V V I

now you would still be in Major there, but its understood that the V/V is not part of the key.


Exactly, as the V/V is borrowing a chord from a neighboring key. I'm talking more about the distinction between the Ionian mode and the Major scale, without bringing in borrowed notes (as it's generally accepted that borrowed notes can really mess up the framework of modal music).
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#38
Quote by farcry
Where's BGC, she's the only I trust around here. Atleast I think BGC is a she.


its a she, and after taking the time to write that out I must say I'm somewhat insulted.
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#39
Quote by GuitarMunky
Right thats what im saying.
Hmm, that's a good point. So I guess the real limitation about modes is that you're stuck at the tonal center and can't leave it. I realize that you can change modes but there's more you can do in one key than in one mode.
#40
Quote by grampastumpy
Hmm, that's a good point. So I guess the real limitation about modes is that you're stuck at the tonal center and can't leave it. I realize that you can change modes but there's more you can do in one key than in one mode.


^That is exactly what I'm getting at.
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