#1
I have been playing guitar for a few years and getting alot into soloing. I know my major and minor scales, but never used them, I was always stuck with the pentatonic scales.

I was wondering if for example in sweet child o mine, the chord progression for the solo is in Em, if i can play the Em scale pattern throughout the progression or do i have to change with every chord change?


also if i decide to do a run with ''modes'' will I have to change with every chord also?

and will it sound ok to go from a pentatonic minor to a minor scale?
#2
technically
since the solo is in E minor you could use minor pent
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#3
Quote by Fappy
technically
since the solo is in E minor you could use minor pent


Thats what i'm doing right now, but i want to turn to something else, not necessarily for that song , but being able to integrate major and minor scales(non pentatonic) into my solos
#4
Try changing the not so vital notes, inserting extra notes in between the ones you use now.
A bit like this, try searching every note you can fit in the scale. Also once you've done that try calculating how to use these notes to get to another scale.
--------------------------------------------------------------12-14-15-----
-----------------------------------------12-14-15-----------------------------
-------------------------------12-13-14----------------------------------
---------------------12--14--------------------------------------------
-----------12--14------------------------------------------------------
-12-14-15----------------------------------------------------------------
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#5
I say what you could start off with for your transition to different scales is use the minor pentatonic as a basis and then add in notes from the minor scale that sound good with it, just to give it a slightly different flavor. Just make sure it sounds good to your ears and it's cool. And no, you don't HAVE to change keys for a chord change as long as the chord is in that key.

EDIT: Oh, and seconded what FretboardToAsh said.
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Last edited by ToastYerLicks at Jun 21, 2008,
#6
Quote by FretboardToAsh
Try changing the not so vital notes, inserting extra notes in between the ones you use now.
A bit like this, try searching every note you can fit in the scale. Also once you've done that try calculating how to use these notes to get to another scale.
--------------------------------------------------------------12-14-15-----
-----------------------------------------12-14-15-----------------------------
-------------------------------12-13-14----------------------------------
---------------------12--14--------------------------------------------
-----------12--14------------------------------------------------------
-12-14-15----------------------------------------------------------------


i understand that but can someone explian to me is when using regular major and minor scales i have to folow the chord changes..............thats pretty much what i want to know

i also want to know if usinfg an Em scale ( non pent) i can ''blow'' through a solo using just that ''scale''
#7
Quote by ferguson911
also if i decide to do a run with ''modes'' will I have to change with every chord also?

and will it sound ok to go from a pentatonic minor to a minor scale?
Sure if you want. Just remember that if you view modes this way (there are aparently four other ways to view modes) that the mode your using will change because of the chord. If you use an E phrygian shape over Em, FM, CM and so on, you will technically be playing E phrygian, F lydian, C ionian and so on. When thinking about modes in this way, its wisest to be able to choose which modes to play over these chords.
#8
Quote by demonofthenight
Sure if you want. Just remember that if you view modes this way (there are aparently four other ways to view modes) that the mode your using will change because of the chord. If you use an E phrygian shape over Em, FM, CM and so on, you will technically be playing E phrygian, F lydian, C ionian and so on. When thinking about modes in this way, its wisest to be able to choose which modes to play over these chords.



but is it possible to stay on the same ''scale'' throughout the progression, not tlaking about modes necessarily, or is this only applicable to pentatonics?
#9
Quote by ferguson911
I have been playing guitar for a few years and getting alot into soloing. I know my major and minor scales, but never used them, I was always stuck with the pentatonic scales.

I was wondering if for example in sweet child o mine, the chord progression for the solo is in Em, if i can play the Em scale pattern throughout the progression or do i have to change with every chord change?


also if i decide to do a run with ''modes'' will I have to change with every chord also?

and will it sound ok to go from a pentatonic minor to a minor scale?


Well if you look at the solo from the actual song you'll see that the entire solo is just from the Em scale. You don't need to change scales. But you do need to be aware that each time the chords change that the "strong" notes within that scale will change.

For example when playing an Em scale over an Em chord, the chord tones will be the strongest, so the E, F# the B and in some cases the D. Whereas when the chord changes to A, the A C E and G are the stronger notes. Now all of those notes are still within the Em scale.

It does sound like you're thinking in terms of box shapes instead of notes. Your Em scale is E F# G A B C D E no matter where they're found on the neck of the guitar, and not a simple shape you find up on the 12 fret.

However, Slash has a tendency to actually follow the chords when he plays. E pentatonic over E, A over A G over G and so forth. If you listen to the song Mr Brownstone you'll actually hear him doing this near the end of the solo, so it's something you can try playing around with.

As for modes, I'm not really qualified to explain, and I'm sure there are people who will explain far better, but first, it doesn't sound like something you're ready to mess with just yet. Second, the mode is dictated by the chord you're playing over. an Em scale over an Em chord is aeolian mode an Em scale over a G chord is Ionian, over a C it becomes Mixolydian. The notes you play aren't changing, it's still the same scale.

You could actually play something like Dorian over each chord, but you'd have to change scales for some chord changes, and it's one of those things you can only do in certain circumstances. As I said, I can't adequately explain how this works, but I can say it's something you probably shouldn't worry about until you're experienced with your pentatonic and regular scales.
#10
Quote by ferguson911
but is it possible to stay on the same ''scale'' throughout the progression, not tlaking about modes necessarily, or is this only applicable to pentatonics?


Yes, and 99.9% of the time this is exactly what you should be doing.

The only time you ever need to change scales is if the key changes, which is something you won't run into all that often in regular rock type music.

Now, do you know how to play your Em pentatonic over the entire guitar?
#11
If you have a chord progression that stays completely in the key, such as Em D C D, then you can just play around with your Em scale. However, SCOM is something like Em D C B7 (apologies for not knowing the exact progression), where they play chords in the Em scale but use the major V chord, B7, rather than minor, Bm. Over the chords in the key, use the E minor scale, but over B7, use E HARMONIC minor, E F# G A B C D#.
#12
Watch Marty Friedman's Melodic Control (Google is your friend!). He shows how you could just play in the key. But targeting the notes of the chord makes it sound nicer.
Call me Batman.
#13
Quote by ferguson911
but is it possible to stay on the same ''scale'' throughout the progression, not tlaking about modes necessarily, or is this only applicable to pentatonics?
yes, but only if your progression is mostly diatonic.
#14
Quote by icronic
Well if you look at the solo from the actual song you'll see that the entire solo is just from the Em scale. You don't need to change scales. But you do need to be aware that each time the chords change that the "strong" notes within that scale will change.

For example when playing an Em scale over an Em chord, the chord tones will be the strongest, so the E, F# the B and in some cases the D. Whereas when the chord changes to A, the A C E and G are the stronger notes. Now all of those notes are still within the Em scale.

It does sound like you're thinking in terms of box shapes instead of notes. Your Em scale is E F# G A B C D E no matter where they're found on the neck of the guitar, and not a simple shape you find up on the 12 fret.

However, Slash has a tendency to actually follow the chords when he plays. E pentatonic over E, A over A G over G and so forth. If you listen to the song Mr Brownstone you'll actually hear him doing this near the end of the solo, so it's something you can try playing around with.

As for modes, I'm not really qualified to explain, and I'm sure there are people who will explain far better, but first, it doesn't sound like something you're ready to mess with just yet. Second, the mode is dictated by the chord you're playing over. an Em scale over an Em chord is aeolian mode an Em scale over a G chord is Ionian, over a C it becomes Mixolydian. The notes you play aren't changing, it's still the same scale.

You could actually play something like Dorian over each chord, but you'd have to change scales for some chord changes, and it's one of those things you can only do in certain circumstances. As I said, I can't adequately explain how this works, but I can say it's something you probably shouldn't worry about until you're experienced with your pentatonic and regular scales.


so when using regular scales, i just have to play example on a D i play a D scale ( nor matter major or minor, just for knowing), an E i would play in E etc...
#15
well if you wanna blaze through a solo in Em that's possible I can't see why you wouldn't wanna do that. If you wanna change scales though that requires some practice and calculating, check this out.

this is a scale in Em, it has a name wich i've long since forgotten but I think it was dorian
-------------------------------------------------------------12-----
------------------------------------------------12-14-15----------
----------------------------------------12-14----------------------
---------------------------12-14-16-------------------------------
--------------12-14-16--------------------------------------------
-12-14-15---------------------------------------------------------
now here's another scale
------------------------------------------------9-11-12------------
-------------------------------------9-10-12-----------------------
------------------------------9-12----------------------------------
-----------------------9-11-----------------------------------------
------------9-11-12------------------------------------------------
-9-11-12-----------------------------------------------------------

as you can see there are certain similiar notes between the 2 scales, these should be used to change from one scale to another. A bit like this,

--------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------- ------------------------------------9~~-----------
-------------------------12~~- ----------------------------9\8-----------11-11--
-------------12\11------------- 11\9-11--------------11------9-----------------
---------14---------12--------- -----------9~~-9-12----------------------------
-12-15------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------

now unless you're completely oblivious to what has happened, the root note moved up from an E to F#. It's a weird trick that will most likely never be used by any of you but I still felt I should post it.

also possible, the root note goes from E to C#
--------------------------------- --------------------------------------------9-9----
--------------------------------- ------------------------------------9~~-----------
-------------------------12~~- ----------------------------9\8--------------------
-------------12\11------------- 11\9-11--------------11------9-----------------
---------14---------12--------- -----------9~~-9-12----------------------------
-12-15------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by FretboardToAsh at Jun 21, 2008,
#16
Quote by icronic
Yes, and 99.9% of the time this is exactly what you should be doing.

The only time you ever need to change scales is if the key changes, which is something you won't run into all that often in regular rock type music.

Now, do you know how to play your Em pentatonic over the entire guitar?



Yes i know all of my scales on the guitar fretboard( pentatonic) and most major minor
#17
Quote by ferguson911
so when using regular scales, i just have to play example on a D i play a D scale ( nor matter major or minor, just for knowing), an E i would play in E etc...
You're not changing your scale at each chord change. Over Em D C D, you'd play Em over the whole thing, not Em, some D scale, some C scale, some D scale.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Jun 21, 2008,
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You're not changing your scale at each chord change. Over Em D C D, you'd play Em over the whole thing, not Em, some D scale, some C scale, some D scale.
You could though. Some guys do that.
#19
Quote by demonofthenight
You could though. Some guys do that.
Let's keep things simple.


WARNING: MODE CONTENT!
(That means I will discuss complex ideas without simplifying them)

You're not playing E Aeolian, D Mixolydian, C Lydian, then D Mixolydian; you're just playing E minor over that. However, you could do something weird by approaching each chord as an island. Over Em, let's try E Phrygian. Then over D, let's try that D Mixolydian scale. Then over C, let's try C Phrygian Dominant. Then over the next D, let's not play D Mixo again but rather D Lydian. These specific choices will probably sound bad, but it shows the idea.
#21
Quote by FretboardToAsh
It's called pitch axis theory, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Axis_Theory
look it up in there, should explain.
Please explain how that applies.
#22
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Let's keep things simple.


WARNING: MODE CONTENT!
(That means I will discuss complex ideas without simplifying them)

You're not playing E Aeolian, D Mixolydian, C Lydian, then D Mixolydian; you're just playing E minor over that. However, you could do something weird by approaching each chord as an island. Over Em, let's try E Phrygian. Then over D, let's try that D Mixolydian scale. Then over C, let's try C Phrygian Dominant. Then over the next D, let's not play D Mixo again but rather D Lydian. These specific choices will probably sound bad, but it shows the idea.
Same rule applies to me...

When your thinking about modes in this way, technically you are playing the same 7 notes, technically your probably using the same shape, but also, the mode thats technically playing will change with every chord. Would I suggest changing positions with everychord change? No, but I would suggest you attempt to recognise which notes are chord tones and which ones are modal notes and so on.

And you wouldnt play C phrygian dominant over any chord, you could though, I guess. You would normally play it over a chord thats played after (or before) a minor chord thats 7 semitones lower or 5 semitones higher.
And mixolydian is normally played exclusively over dominant chords.
#23
Quote by ferguson911
so when using regular scales, i just have to play example on a D i play a D scale ( nor matter major or minor, just for knowing), an E i would play in E etc...


Not what I meant.

I mean, you can do this, and like I said slash does this for quite a lot of his solos.

But generally no, as long as the chord progression you're playing stays in the same key, you can and probably should play the same scale the entire time. You don't need to change scales on chord changes, you simply need to change the notes in which you emphasize within that scale.


Em scale is E F# G A B C D E

over Em chord your strong notes are

E F# G A B C D E

Because those notes make up an actual Em chord

if the chord changes to G

E F# G A B C D E

Or a C chord

E F# G A B C D E

All of these notes are a part of the Em scale. I'm not saying you need to avoid playing the other notes, but the ones in bold are the strong notes for that chord. So again, the scales not changing at all, it's the same throughout the chord changes,
#25
Quote by FretboardToAsh
It's called pitch axis theory, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Axis_Theory
look it up in there, should explain.
Pitch axis doesnt apply. Pitch axis means changing the melodic scale/mode periodically over a static root note which doesnt change. As in, there is no chord progression. We are talking about improvising over chord progressions.

To Icronic
Playing the same scale/mode over a chord progression might be easier, but it also limits some possibilies and restricts your thoughts to what notes relate to the key of the whole song, instead of what notes relate to the chord playing at that very moment.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Jun 21, 2008,
#26
Quote by :-D
The progression given is not a pitch axis progression, and has nothing to do with pitch axis theory.


sry I didn't read your posts very well, but still it is what he's asking for - or a bit at least.
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
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#27
Quote by demonofthenight
And you wouldnt play C phrygian dominant over any chord, you could though, I guess. You would normally play it over a chord thats played after (or before) a minor chord thats 7 semitones lower or 5 semitones higher.
And mixolydian is normally played exclusively over dominant chords.
Of course. But! There's nothing saying that you shouldn't play those scales, so the savvy jazz player is going to experiment with something unusual.
#28
Quote by FretboardToAsh
sry I didn't read your posts very well, but still it is what he's asking for - or a bit at least.

Not in this case, as SCOM doesn't feature a pitch axis progression. It'll be helpful to know but may be over his head at this point anyway.
Quote by demonofthenight
Pitch axis doesnt apply. Pitch axis means changing the melodic scale/mode periodically over a static root note which doesnt change. As in, there is no chord progression. We are talking about improvising over chord progressions.

Pitch axis can be and is commonly used over chords.
#29
damn, now you guys got me doubting if it isn't another name in english. I'm not sure anymore, it usually just happens naturally in my case so I never had to research any english sites about it.
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
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#30
Quote by :-D
Pitch axis can be and is commonly used over chords.
It normally is. But it is seldom used where the chords progresses to other chords with different roots, as in a chord progression.

Quote by bangoodcharlotte
Of course. But! There's nothing saying that you shouldn't play those scales, so the savvy jazz player is going to experiment with something unusual.
Sure, but some things are generally regarded as sounding shit. Like the sort of sound you get with the phrygian dominant isnt the sort of sound associated with classic jazz. Maybe in fusion though.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Jun 21, 2008,
#31
Quote by demonofthenight
It normally is. But it is seldom used where the chords progress to other chord with different roots, as in a chord progression.

If the root changes, it will never be pitch axis - by definition, the changed root will mean there's no axis.
#32
Quote by :-D
If the root changes, it will never be pitch axis - by definition, the changed root will mean there's no axis.
Dreamtheaters "lie" is generally regarded as using pitch axis theory. I wiki'ed it.
#33
Quote by demonofthenight
Dreamtheaters "lie" is generally regarded as using pitch axis theory. I wiki'ed it.

And this supports my point. Look at the music given on Wiki; the B never changes.
#34
Quote by :-D
And this supports my point. Look at the music given on Wiki; the B never changes.
Oh god damn it. I just noticed those chords have a base of B.

Well can it still be pitch axis if the chord changes after say, 20 measures?
#35
Quote by demonofthenight
Oh god damn it. I just noticed those chords have a base of B.

Well can it still be pitch axis if the chord changes after say, 20 measures?

If you're referring to something like 20 measures of a pitch axis progression on C and then shifting to a chord based off D, it won't immediately be pitch axis; it's just another chord, and will become part of a pitch axis progression if you start changing the notes of that D whatever chord other than the root.