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#1
alright, so i know that the Ionian and the aeolian modes (major/minor scale) have the same notes and are just shifted to make them different scales. what i cant figure out is if the other modes are like this or not and if so compared to what. hopefully thats a good enough explanation of what im trying to understand but if not i can try again
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
#3
Quote by bangoodcharlote
What is shifted?


In essence, I'm asking for the scale played if you play the notes A B C D E F G between frets 5 and 8 over a static C major chord.

A B C D E F G is A Minor
it is relative to C Major because C Major is
C D E F G A B
All the same notes, but different root.
Does this answer your question?

as to modes, this thread.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519196
#4
first i learned the major scale and then learned that the minor scale is the exact same scale with the same shapes and everything so then i knew 2 scales for the price of one. what i want to know is if the rest of the modes fit together like that or if i have to learn them all separately. i dont want to learn them all separately if i dont have to but i just want to know whether or not i have to
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
Last edited by ratm92 at Jun 22, 2008,
#5
#6
Hmm... I'll try to break it down.

Major scale in terms of intervals is W-W-H-W-W-W-H (W for Whole tone H is for Half tone)

now if start on the 2nd note and add the first W to the back, you get W-H-W-W-W-H-W giving you the Dorian mode.

do the same procedure again: H-W-W-W-H-W-W is a Phrygian

W-W-W-H-W-W-H gives you a Lydian
W-W-H-W-W-H-W gives you a Mixolydian
W-H-W-W-H-W-W gives you a Minor
H-W-W-H-W-W-W gives you a Locrian
#7
Quote by ratm92
alright, so i know that the Ionian and the aeolian modes (major/minor scale) have the same notes and are just shifted to make them different scales. what i cant figure out is if the other modes are like this or not and if so compared to what. hopefully thats a good enough explanation of what im trying to understand but if not i can try again

Could you ask a specific question? I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.
#8
All of the "standard" modes follow the same shape you are talking about. Think about the modes as this: each mode works off of the major scale but starts on a different note. Take C Major for instance; CDEFGABC. The Ionian mode of C is just a standard major C so CDEFGABC;
Dorian starts on the second note, so DEFGABCD, Phrygian starts on the third EFGABCDE; etc. So the shape is the same it just starts on a different note; modes only come in too effect when they are placed within a context of chords, because if they aren't they just sound like the root major

Hope that helps.
#9
Quote by one vision


that guy is the man, his hair is sick. im going to actually watch the videos now so ill get back to you on how they are for me
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
#11
Quote by Dwardom
A B...your question?
It does answer my question, albeit with a completely incorrect answer. You NEVER play Am over a static C major chord, regardless of phrasing, position, pattern, starting note, or ending note.

Is it not obvious when I'm trying to clarify something with the TS? Or did you think I was actually unsure of the answer?


No one but the TS should respond to this thread. I want to work with him/her alone and the wording of the definition of modes is to important to have multiple people putting their ideas into it.
#13
Quote by :-D


*turns around and leaves*
You want to do it? Fine, we'll "rock paper scissors" for it.


ROCK!


TS, please ask a question (not "explain this to me") and either D or I will answer it. I would like to keep the replies to this limited to just D or me, however. You need a single complete answer, not a bunch of incomplete answers.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Jun 22, 2008,
#14
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It does answer my question, albeit with a completely incorrect answer. You NEVER play Am over a static C major chord, regardless of phrasing, position, pattern, starting note, or ending note.

Is it not obvious when I'm trying to clarify something with the TS? Or did you think I was actually unsure of the answer?


No one but the TS should respond to this thread. I want to work with him/her alone and the wording of the definition of modes is to important to have multiple people putting their ideas into it.

Did i ever say play over it?
I said it is relative. It is not a hard transition to go from Am to C. Fm to D, etc. I said the notes are relative to eachother.
#15
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You want to do it? Fine, we'll "rock paper scissors" for it.


ROCK!


TS, please ask a question (not "explain this to me") and either D or I will answer it. I would like to keep the replies to this limited to just be or D, however. You need a single complete answer, not a bunch of incomplete answers.

I put out rock as well, so nothing happened.

As BGC said (and I'll reiterate this if you missed my previous post) please ask something specific. If you give us specific ideas to work with we'll be happy to help, but asking for "an explanation of modes" is far too general. We will wait for a question.
#16
Quote by Dwardom
Did i ever say play over it?
I said it is relative. It is not a hard transition to go from Am to C. Fm to D, etc. I said the notes are relative to eachother.
I'll assume you meant F to Dm, but you don't use modes that way. You don't (CAN'T, in fact) play F Lydian over a C major progression. The answer to my question is C major; no commentary is needed.

Please limit the remaining posts to D, the TS, and me. Feel free to start another thread on what I have just said, however.
#17
alright....i completely understand this:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

that there is the major scale.
then, i could reorder it starting with aeolian and have the minor scale.

i dont know if you guys watched those videos but i started to get lost in the second one.

first he made B Ionian...easy, B Major scale, same as B Locrian
then B Dorian (im kinda confused as to why he was using B, i dont know if its random or if theres a method to his madness that im missing). he says Dorians the second step of the major scale, i get that, so then the root must be A major. i sorta dont get that. i just start making assumptions as to why thats true and dont know exactly why

then he did B Phrygian which is the third step of the major, i get that, but then he counts back 3 so get the root to be G major.

as i typed that i had a huge realization but i dont know if its right. for B Phrygian, is he counting back 3 from the B note, B cause its in B and 3 cause its the third step? so if it was F dorian for example would he count 2 back from the F note to get the root?

also now i dont get why the root for B phrygian is g major when phrygian is minor
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
#18
B major is nowhere near the same as B Locrian, first of all. B major is B C# D# E F# G# A# while B Locrian is B C D E F G A.

The Dorian mode is the second mode of the major scale, so B Dorian has a parent scale of A major, you're correct. They contain the same notes, and that's the similarity between them.

B Phrygian is based in G major; it's the third mode of the major scale, and the B is the third of the G major scale, which goes G A B C D E F#. F Dorian would be the second degree of the Eb major scale; you know that it is a whole step above the root of the parent scale because of the major scale construction formula, so one whole step below F is Eb. Our F Dorian scale is F G Ab Bb C D Eb.
#20
Quote by bangoodcharlote
TS, please ask a question (not "explain this to me") and either D or I will answer it. I would like to keep the replies to this limited to just D or me, however. You need a single complete answer, not a bunch of incomplete answers.
You're really knowledgeable and all, but isn't that a bit of an authoritative stance for you to be taking?
Quote by ratm92
alright, so i know that the Ionian and the aeolian modes (major/minor scale) have the same notes and are just shifted to make them different scales. what i cant figure out is if the other modes are like this or not and if so compared to what. hopefully thats a good enough explanation of what im trying to understand but if not i can try again
I get what you mean. In short, yes. "Shifting" the C in a C ionian scale up to the top and using D as the root note will make it a D dorian scale. However, modes depend on a lot more than what may seem to be the root note. A run up a D dorian scale running up a C major progression doesn't imply a D dorian tonality. Since it has the same notes as C major and the tonal center of C major is C, it's just plain C major. Conversely, a run up a C major scale in a D dorian progression(or vamp) implies a D dorian tonality. The mode(or key) is determined by the tonal center.
#22
Quote by grampastumpy
You're really knowledgeable and all, but isn't that a bit of an authoritative stance for you to be taking?
I'm BGC! King Kong ain't got shit on me! (Oh, Denzel...)


Yes, it's an authoritative stance. What's the problem?
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I'm BGC! King Kong ain't got shit on me! (Oh, Denzel...)


Yes, it's an authoritative stance. What's the problem?
Damn my not having watched a lot of movies. The closest thing I can think of is that one scene from Malibu's Most Wanted...

Well, this is a public forum you don't own. Other people might have fantastic input anyway. I kinda get where you're coming from though, as mode discussions always become...well ya know, around here.

Plus I feel left out...
#24
Quote by grampastumpy
Damn my not having watched a lot of movies. The closest thing I can think of is that one scene from Malibu's Most Wanted...
My guess is that scene was spoofing on Denzel Washington's film "Training Day," where he says that, well, "police" rather than "BGC."


Anyway, whenever modes come up, a bunch of people put in their $0.02 and no one really provides a complete answer except for a few people. And then the thread turns into me arguing about subtle, but important wording issues and it just becomes a mess.
#25
my bad when i said b locrian and b maj are the same. did not mean that. that post was so long i knew something would get messed up there.

im still a little confused though.

fact: G maj is the root of B Phrygian

assumption based on the fact: C Phrygian would have a root at G# maj

B Lydian would have the root of F#?

can i just take the step of the mode (Phrygian 3rd, Lydian 4th) and count that back from the first note of the mode (C, B respectively in my examples) im playing in to get the root
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
#26
Quote by ratm92
my bad when i said b locrian and b maj are the same. did not mean that. that post was so long i knew something would get messed up there.

im still a little confused though.

fact: G maj is the root of B Phrygian

assumption based on the fact: C Phrygian would have a root at G# maj

B Lydian would have the root of F#?

can i just take the step of the mode (Phrygian 3rd, Lydian 4th) and count that back from the first note of the mode (C, B respectively in my examples) im playing in to get the root

The parent scale of B Phrygian is G major, yes; the parent scale of C Phrygian is Ab major, not G# major. B Lydian would be based on a parent scale of F# major, that is also correct.

If you know your major scale formula WWHWWWH, you can find any mode using that as a reference.
Last edited by :-D at Jun 22, 2008,
#27
Quote by bangoodcharlote
My guess is that scene was spoofing on Denzel Washington's film "Training Day," where he says that, well, "police" rather than "BGC."


Anyway, whenever modes come up, a bunch of people put in their $0.02 and no one really provides a complete answer except for a few people. And then the thread turns into me arguing about subtle, but important wording issues and it just becomes a mess.
lol, I figured. I would watch it now just to see him say "BGC" if that were it.

Well that's true, but there are other people capable of delivering complete answers. As to those who give fragmentary and/or incorrect answers, I agree that they're a pain to deal with, but this IS a public forum. If you want to deal with TS alone, PM him.
Quote by ratm92
my bad when i said b locrian and b maj are the same. did not mean that. that post was so long i knew something would get messed up there.

im still a little confused though.

fact: G maj is the root of B Phrygian

assumption based on the fact: C Phrygian would have a root at G# maj

B Lydian would have the root of F#?

can i just take the step of the mode (Phrygian 3rd, Lydian 4th) and count that back from the first note of the mode (C, B respectively in my examples) im playing in to get the root
Well technically C phrygian would be "rooted" on Ab major.

However, the whole point of modes is to use a root/tonal center different than the one in its parent scale. In D dorian, you're focusing on using D as the root and thus creating intervallic relationships between it and the other notes (mostly notably B, the major 6th) that wouldn't exist in a standard major or minor key, and while the parent scale is C major, you don't use C as the root.
#29
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Um, no. C Phrygian's root is C by definition.

Hence the quotation marks. He asked if the root of C phrygian was G# major, and it is the parent scale(well, Ab). I spent the rest of my post trying to make the distinction between the root of a mode and that of its parent scale.

EDIT: TS, in case last post wasn't clear enough: D dorian has the same notes as C major, but the root of D dorian is still D. What you're thinking of is the parent scale, the scale the mode comes from.
#30
Quote by grampastumpy
Hence the quotation marks. He asked if the root of C phrygian was G# major, and it is the parent scale(well, Ab). I spent the rest of my post trying to make the distinction between the root of a mode and that of its parent scale.
Then say "the parent scale," not "rooted."

It's completely wrong to say that C Phrygian is rooted on Ab. However, it's completely accurate to say that it's parent scale is Ab major.


I guess you were addressing the G# vs. Ab issue, though, which is completely different. Yes, it's Ab, not G#.
#31
well, i dont get why parent scale for C Phrygian would technically be Ab maj rather than G# maj (to me right now thats the same thing) but i think this has proved that my way of thinking of it does work which i think will help a lot in learning them.
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
#32
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Then say "the parent scale," not "rooted."

It's completely wrong to say that C Phrygian is rooted on Ab. However, it's completely accurate to say that it's parent scale is Ab major.


I guess you were addressing the G# vs. Ab issue, though, which is completely different. Yes, it's Ab, not G#.
Exactly.

(whew, crisis averted)
Quote by ratm92
well, i dont get why the root for C Phrygian would technically be Ab rather than G# (to me right now thats the same thing) but i think this has proved that my way of thinking of it does work which i think will help a lot in learning them.
They are the same pitch, but for spelling purposes, do have distinctions. The key of Ab has the notes Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G. G# has G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, FX(double-sharp). Notice how G# doesn't have a C in it. It does have a B# enharmonic to C, but it is still not the same. Ab has a C right there.

That said, if you play a C phrygian scale over something that suggests B# phrygian, you will be hitting all the "right"-sounding notes.
Last edited by grampastumpy at Jun 22, 2008,
#33
Quote by ratm92
well, i dont get why the root for C Phrygian would technically be Ab rather than G# (to me right now thats the same thing) but i think this has proved that my way of thinking of it does work which i think will help a lot in learning them.

The notes of G# major would be G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx, and you can't have a double sharp in a key signature. The intervals would not line up correctly and there's no C in the scale anyway. Use Ab.
#34
Quote by ratm92
well, i dont get why the root for C Phrygian would technically be Ab rather than G# (to me right now thats the same thing) but i think this has proved that my way of thinking of it does work which i think will help a lot in learning them.
The root is C. The parent scale is Ab.

The reason it's Ab and not G# is because the notes in the G# major scale are G# A# B# C# D# E# F## (no typo, that's supposed to be ##). The scale doesn't even contain a "C" note! Now, B# and C are enharmonic, meaning they are the same pitch with two different means, but their functions are different. The reason is that, back in the day, B# and C sounded slightly different and were not the exact same pitch. The nomenclature has carried over to the present day, even though they are currently the exact same pitch.

If you're unable to understand most of what I've just said, please review basic theory and the major scale before getting into modes. As Arch would say, "you're not ready for modes."
#35
This thread is a mess.

To the TS (elaborating on what D and BGS have already covered): The mode is determined by the harmonic context, not the order of the notes. If your tonal center is C, the notes "CDEFGAB" are C major regardless of the order in which you play them (Not necessarily C ionian. Although C major and C ionian are the same scales, they imply different musical systems. Using the terms interchangeably is incorrect, and the vast majority of music isn't modal.) You do not have the option of switching between C ionian or D dorian or F lydian merely by changing positions. Modes are not something you select at will to spice up a solo. They are individual scales that are used when the underlying harmony specifically calls for them.

Although I strongly recommend that you ignore modes completely for now, and focus instead on the theory behind the major scale and diatonic harmony, I do have a few pointers. Trying to study relative modes is needlessly confusing for someone in the process of learning about modal music, and doesn't tell you what they are or how they function. If you want to learn what modes are, start by comparing each of them to their parallel major, and then to each of the other parallel modes. This will teach you the unique characteristics of each of the modes when compared to the major scale. If we do this with each mode in C, we get...

Ionian
C-D-E-F-G-A-B
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

Dorian
C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7

Phrygian
C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb
1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

Lydian
C-D-E-F#-G-A-B
1-2-3-#4-5-6-7

Mixolydian
C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7

Aeolian
C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

Locrian
C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb
1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

As you can see, modes are not merely the major scale starting on a different note (the note with which you start or end a passage is irrelevant), but scales in their own right with their own distinctive characteristics.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#36
Quote by Sue
Is it not obvious when I'm trying to clarify something with the TS? Or did you think I was actually unsure of the answer?


No one but the TS should respond to this thread. I want to work with him/her alone and the wording of the definition of modes is to important to have multiple people putting their ideas into it.
Could you please be a little more arrogant?

Quote by Sue
You don't (CAN'T, in fact) play F Lydian over a C major progression.
I disagree. It's easy to play F lydian over the F chord in C major.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#37
I disagree. It's easy to play F lydian over the F chord in C major.


I disagree. Your tonal center is still C.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#38
Quote by Ænimus Prime
I disagree. It's easy to play F lydian over the F chord in C major.
The "lydian note" can be seen as just an extension of the F chord within C major. The overall tonality doesn't change.

Oh God, here we go again...
#39
This is taken from the sticky
Quote by Corwinoid
Melodic Interchange:
This is an aspect of modes that naturally occurs. It requires very little thought on your part to happen, it just does. Melodic Interchange is something you should be aware of, however, to avoid clashes between your melody and your progression. Let's say we have the following progression...


Code:

A progression in C
C / / / F / / / G7 / / / C / / /

We can see pretty easily that we are in the key of C, playing a I-IV-V7 progression, nothing overtly complex going on here. Simply put, melodic interchange happens when the chords change, and we continue to play in key. If our melody is written in C major as well, the mode as we're playing over the C major chord is C major, as we're playing over the F major chord, the mode becomes F lydian, over the G7 it becomes G mixolydian. Over each chord, different tones in the relative major (C) become more important, and hold more emphasis. Even though our setting, C major, never changes, the fundamental mode that's being played does.
That pretty much sums it up for me.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#40
is the difference between C Phrygian and Ab Major that you play the latter over and Ab major chord progression and you play the first over a C chord progression (which in theory could contain the exact same chords but just start with the given root?)
Quote by loganrocksabass

how can your girlfriend be in your band if she's in the kitchen?
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