#1
i was wondering is it theoritically right to go from a minor to a harmonic minor? or does the G# have a dramatic effect?
#2
To be honest if you dont have an exstensive background in music theory and modes then its better to just stick with the rule that if it sounds good then its right.
#4
It could be done, nothings theoretically wrong if it sounds good.
But if it clashes, then do not do it.
#5
Quote by metalrhoads
i was wondering is it theoritically right to go from a minor to a harmonic minor? or does the G# have a dramatic effect?


Yes, in some cases. If you are playing over an A minor chord progression with no accidentals, then play the natural minor. However, in a lot of western music, the G# is required inside the minor key to create traditional cadences.

For example, a Perfect cadence (V-I, or Dominant to Tonic) gives music a "finished" sound and helps resolve the chord progression.
Perfect Cadences in a minor key often sound best with a Major dominant leading to the Minor Tonic. Therefore:

E,G#,B (maj V) to A,C,E (min I)

Over this chord change, include the G#.

Extensive use of the G# throughout the whole chord pregression can sound too unconventional and the G# accidental will have to be included in all chords which would usually contain G.
#6
Quote by loves2sp00n
To be honest if you dont have an exstensive background in music theory and modes then its better to just stick with the rule that if it sounds good then its right.


QFT, according to my guitar teacher it is not definitely necessary to learn music theory
#7
Quote by 08L1V10N
QFT, according to my guitar teacher it is not definitely necessary to learn music theory


That's absolute rubbish if you're serious about developing as an instrumentalist and musician.
#8
^the majority of guitarist's you would have heard about know theory to some extent. This includes clapton, van halen and hendrix
Quote by metalrhoads
i was wondering is it theoritically right to go from a minor to a harmonic minor? or does the G# have a dramatic effect?
It's not just theoretically possible, its prefered. If your writing in minor, you should be resolving your melodies on the right note. It's best this way, but you obviously dont have to (bach isnt going to come round to your house and beat you with a conductors stick).

The G# leads nicely to the A note. So if you want to resolve a minor melody it's best to use that G#. Also, like pagan pie said, a dominant V chord and a full diminished vii0 chord is usually used in place of a minor v chord and a Major bVII chord (its just cause they lead better to the A minor chord). You would need to use the harmonic minor scale over these chords.

If anyone is interested, I'll repost a post of mine of when I believe you should use elements of the harmonic minor, when to use elements of the melodic minor and when to use elements of the natural minor.
#10
You can play both natural minor and harmonic minor over the chord you're playing if it's just a straight up power chord like A5, cos it has no 7th, (and no 3rd, assuming your writing in minor). The chord Am would be fine too, but not Am7 for harmonic minor scale, cos the 7ths clash).
#11
Theory doesn't say whether something is right or something is wrong. Theory just lets you know what you are doing.

For example, it is wrong to say you are playing a major scale if you are play 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7, because that isn't the major scale. It isn't wrong to play that, it just isn't the major scale.

Theory can help you understand why certain things sound better and to be able to predict things that will sound good. For example, generally when you change between scales and modes, you don't want to change between things that are too different, Phygrian to Lydian isn't usually a great switch because they only share two notes (root and fifth), but Phygrian to Minor scale is a lot smoother because only the second changes between them.

Minor to harmonic minor is usually a good switch because they only have one interval change between. It doesn't guarantee the transition will sound good, but it is one that does work well a lot of the time.
#12
Quote by TUMFP
I'd be interested and very appreciative if you did post that demonofthenight.
4 u
Remember that I wrote it to disagree with someone saying you MUST play melodic minor ascending and you MUST play natural minor descending. Please correct any mistakes MT'ers.
______________________________
To say that you must play the melodic minor one way ascending and another way descending isnt entirely correct.

First off, to resolve whilst writing minor melodies, you probably should use the major seventh as it resolves really well to the root just about a semitone about it.

If your moving from above the root to the a seventh just below the root, and you want to resolve the melody, you probably should play a major seventh (meaning harmonic minor) instead of a minor seventh. This produces a strong resolution to the root.

If you want to hit that major seventh (so you can resolve to the root) without moving from above the root (so you can move upwards in pitch, not downwards), you probably should use a Major sixth instead of a minor sixth. This is because the augmented second (same as a minor third) step the minor sixth creates with the major seventh is dissonant.

If you dont want to resolve your melody, you should use the minor seventh, as it doesnt resolve as easy.

If you want to play perfect fifth, try to use a minor sixth instead of a major sixth as the minor sixth leads better to the perfect fifth.

If you want to sound eastern, try to play that minor sixth note before or after that major seventh note. For the best effect, dont play a root note and keep that dissonance hanging.

This is why many people consider writing in minor keys more difficult than major keys. The only note out of key note in major melodies that I would use regularly is the #4, as it moves really well to the perfect fifth (which can act like a second root; therefore resolving your melodies)
#13
^ Nice post Demon that's pretty helpful. How would you use natural/harmonic/melodic minor together when writing progressions? I usually write my minor progressions using natural all the way through except for the V7 and the vii°7 unless I'm descending from the tonic chord eg. i - bVII - bVI. Is this a common approach?
Last edited by Eirien at Jun 26, 2008,
#14
A very common minor progression in Am G F E7. Over the first three chords, the appropriate scale is A natural minor. Over the E7 chord, the appropriate scale is A harmonic minor.
#15
Quote by Eirien
^ Nice post Demon that's pretty helpful. How would you use natural/harmonic/melodic minor together when writing progressions? I usually write my minor progressions using natural all the way through except for the V7 and the vii°7 unless I'm descending from the tonic chord eg. i - VII - VI. Is this a common approach?
Only with aeolian progressions (which sound lighter, less dominating IMO), which wont use any of the new chords I'm describing (but still wont resolve to the III chord).

The tricky thing about minor progressions is that they most resolve to the right minor chord (A minor in A minor), without resolving to the III chord.

Generally the bVII and v chords of the harmonized natural minor scale resolve and move better to the III chord than to the i chord. So alot of composers would change those chords to viio full diminished and a V chord. Both these new chords move alot better to the i chord than the III chord.

I'm sure most of you have figured out you get these chords when you harmonize the harmonic minor scale. When you harmonize the 'harmonic minor scale' you also get a III+ (augmented) chord and a ii0 half diminished chord. Personally, I dont like these chords. They sound ick (if you actually like the augmented chord, stop watching james bond), and I think that ii0 chord moves too well to the III chord. So generally we would change these chords to a simple III major chord and to a simple ii minor chord.
Some guys (I think it was corwinoid) like the way the ii0 chord moves to and from the V7 chord. I dont, but you might so try it out and see what you think.

Just remember that the only rule with these minor progressions is that they shouldnt resolve to the III chord. If they do, it would mean its actually a major progression, which is just as capable of a sad, mellow feeling as minor or modal progressions.
#16
Was your previous post exclusively about melodies then? My question was more about how your observations fit in with progressions (I probably should've phrased it as such) eg. in a progression does what you said about the augmented 2nd become exempt like when going from a bVI to V7? Or do you think it just sounds more natural just because of the way the voices move, considering the root in the bVI moving down to the root in the V7 rather than up to the 3rd?
#17
Quote by Eirien
Was your previous post exclusively about melodies then? My question was more about how your observations fit in with progressions (I probably should've phrased it as such) eg. in a progression does what you said about the augmented 2nd become exempt like when going from a bVI to V7? Or do you think it just sounds more natural just because of the way the voices move, considering the root in the bVI moving down to the root in the V7 rather than up to the 3rd?
Sorry. And yeah, my post was exclusively about melody. The augmented second interval in the progression doesnt sound too bad...
Sorry, I honestly dont know, as I havent done too much about counterpoint and voice leading.
I guess it needs experimentation.
#18
man....all this resolution, tonic and dominant and leading and chord progression is soo confusing...i mean ****, ive read up soooo much about it but i dont understand their true definitions. Like "forming" the chords to play to a certain scale, i believe if i study the leading chart ill kno wat chords to use/not use IF i find out the chords first of all...resolution i think i needa read like 10 more times....Em, Gbdim, Gaug, Am, B, C, Ebdim is the chord progression to the harmonic minor scale if im correct, but im not just gunna use all those chords one time...imma wanna pick out different ones, but wat leads to wat? so confusing :p
#19
^ dude how did you get that flat sign? I can't find it on the character map.
You should really start learning all that in relation to the major scale first. As you can see by some of the posts in this thread making minor progressions is more complicated.

Quote by demonofthenight
Sorry. And yeah, my post was exclusively about melody. The augmented second interval in the progression doesnt sound too bad...
Sorry, I honestly dont know, as I havent done too much about counterpoint and voice leading.
I guess it needs experimentation.


Yeah I don't know too much about that stuff either. I find it pretty fascinating but don't really know how to go about learning all the in and outs of voice leading, other than the bits I pick up here.
#21
Quote by Eirien
^ dude how did you get that flat sign?
It's a small 'b'

Quote by mike
and I think that ii0 chord moves too well to the III chord.
This can be fixed by using III+, which moves easily to i.
Quote by mike
Some guys (I think it was corwinoid) like the way the ii0 chord moves to and from the V7 chord. I dont, but you might so try it out and see what you think.

E7 - E G# B D
Bdim - B D F
If you have Bdim7 (B D F Ab), the only voice that necessarily moves is E - F
If it's Bm7b5 (B D F A), then two voices move, E - F and G# - A.

E7 - Bdim7 - Am and Bdim7 - E7 - Am both give very strong resolution.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
Last edited by Ænimus Prime at Jun 26, 2008,