Page 1 of 4
#1
Csus4 |x3301x
Fsus2 |x3301x

Csus4 = 1 - 4 - 5
C F G

Fsus2 = 1 - 2 - 5
F - G C

Is this correct what I'm saying?
#2
Quote by 08L1V10N
Csus4 |x3301x
Fsus2 |x3301x

Csus4 = 1 - 4 - 5
C F G

Fsus2 = 1 - 2 - 5
F - G C

Is this correct what I'm saying?


They contain the same notes, but they are not the same chords.
The root and intervals are different.
#3
Yeah, they're inversions of each other. Just depends on what you what the chord to be in the music.
#4
they are played the same way yes, because they involve only 3 notes and they are all played together.
There is also very rarely a clear root because it has no major 3rd in this chord.

Basically, it depends on the context of your playing to say which it is. But yes, they are the same notes.
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#5
yeah pretty wierd... found this out while playing with suspended chords and diminished on the piano. listened to the fsus2 and realized "oh wow this would resolve great to c maj... wait thats cuz its csus4.." I found the same thing with Bdim and Gm7, sort of.

B dim: B D F, but in The Great Gig in the Sky, the Gm7 is played with the exact same notes? can someone explain this?
#6
Quote by connorrcasper1
yeah pretty wierd... found this out while playing with suspended chords and diminished on the piano. listened to the fsus2 and realized "oh wow this would resolve great to c maj... wait thats cuz its csus4.." I found the same thing with Bdim and Gm7, sort of.

B dim: B D F, but in The Great Gig in the Sky, the Gm7 is played with the exact same notes? can someone explain this?
can't be, Gm7 = (Root) - (Bb) etc... best song ever.
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 27, 2015,
#7
Quote by connorrcasper1
yeah pretty wierd... found this out while playing with suspended chords and diminished on the piano. listened to the fsus2 and realized "oh wow this would resolve great to c maj... wait thats cuz its csus4.." I found the same thing with Bdim and Gm7, sort of.

B dim: B D F, but in The Great Gig in the Sky, the Gm7 is played with the exact same notes? can someone explain this?

B dim is pretty much the same as G7 (G B D F), but not Gm7. You could see it as a rootless G7 chord.
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#8
Quote by 08L1V10N
Csus4 |x3301x
Fsus2 |x3301x

Csus4 = 1 - 4 - 5
C F G

Fsus2 = 1 - 2 - 5
F - G C

Is this correct what I'm saying?
Yes, you're correct. The only issue is context. Since neither a sus2, or sus 4 has a 3rd, these chords are most likely best named by the preceding and following chords in the progression.

Actually, this concept is best identified,(or illustrated, if you will), on the guitar with the G and D major chords in the open position.

Take D major:
e-1 2
B-2 3
G-3 3
D-4 0
A-5 X
E-6 X

When you suspend the D chord, normally the sus note is played on e-1 3rd fret "G". In that context the chord could also be called, "G5add9", because of the A on G-3 2nd fret.

If you're prone to diddling around, and it seems you are, try lifting fingers as we all do between that G - D change, but try naming the chords you're forming as you do it

Quote by connorrcasper1
yeah pretty wierd... found this out while playing with suspended chords and diminished on the piano. listened to the fsus2 and realized "oh wow this would resolve great to c maj... wait thats cuz its csus4..
Even software gets confused from time to time. I've seen "Asus4", tabbed as Amsus4. Which as you likely know, can't happen. But, the lead in to the chord was Am, so I suppose it made sense to retain the minor context, rather than have it appear as a key change.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 27, 2015,
#9
Quote by Pagan-Pie
They contain the same notes, but they are not the same chords.
The root and intervals are different.


This.

Similarly, you wouldn't say C Ionian and D Dorian are the same scale simply because they contain the same notes.

If you voice the second chord F C G instead of F G C, then you have the Hendrix "Little Wing" chord, i.e., F5/2. It becomes a "quintal" voicing (i.e., built from stacked fifths.)

Even if you stick with the original voicing (F G C) I would still name the chord F5/2 as opposed to Fsus2.

"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#10
Quote by Tonto Goldstien

Even if you stick with the original voicing (F G C) I would still name the chord F5/2 as opposed to Fsus2....[ ]....
I'm sticking to my guns about that chord being F5add9. I really don't think the 9th has to be in the octave above the octave root to be called a 9th.
#11
FWIW...

From the G.I.T. harmony and theory curriculum:



Note that the third chord on the staff above is the same as the OP's second chord, except that the root is C instead of F.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#12
Quote by Captaincranky
I'm sticking to my guns about that chord being F5add9. I really don't think the 9th has to be in the octave above the octave root to be called a 9th.


You're right about the octave not mattering.

The reason you wouldn't use "9" in your symbol is because there's no 7th in the chord.

(See my last post.)

F5/2 is how you will see the chord written in most pro charts, transcriptions in guitar mags, etc.. etc.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#13
None of you dummies seem to have realized that this thread is ancient.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#14
Quote by Tonto Goldstien
FWIW...

From the G.I.T. harmony and theory curriculum:



Note that the third chord on the staff above is the same as the OP's second chord, except that the root is C instead of F.

FWIW which is probably not much, I disagree with the author of that book.

I agree that those chords are often called "add9" chords. The reason the ninth is used and not "add2" is because the spelling is triad first and then any additional notes. The 2 is inside that triad and throws the spelling out.

C major first (1 3 5) then you add the D to the spelling but we are already up to the fifth so we go up to the D above the fifth which is a ninth not a second.

Also if it were just a matter of the seventh then we wouldn't even call it a Cadd2 like that author suggests. The "add" is to distinguish add chords (with no seventh) from extended chords (that include the seventh). If the use of the "2" as opposed to the "9" already makes this distinction then there is no need for the "add". We see this with the added sixth which is named C6. Because we use "6" we know there is no seventh. If there were a seventh then the 6 would be called a 13 because we name triad then seventh then extensions.

But I don't think Cadd2 or C2 is more accurate than Cadd9 so it's a moot point really. We spell our triad first and then continue up from there. We don't go back down. And its 1 3 5 9 not 1 3 5 2 or 1 2 3 5.

Note that after we name our triad we name notes using numbers >5. Thus we have C6 (C E G A = 1 3 5 6) Cadd9 (1 3 5 9) Cadd11 (1 3 5 11) C6/9 (1 3 5 6 9) etc.

If we have a seventh chord then the seventh is always straight after the triad. 1 3 5 7. Then any extensions are >7 so we have C9 C11 or C13.

I tend to over-explain sometimes and I think I've already done that so I should stop now. This is just my opinion though so take it or leave it really.
Si
#15
Quote by 20Tigers
FWIW which is probably not much, I disagree with the author of that book.


You're correct in noting that, in practice, chords like "C2" are often written as "Cadd9."

It's simply a question of accuracy.

In any event, no disrespect intended, but if I have to choose between a world-renowned musician/educator who developed the harmony and theory curriculum used at a world-famous school and a person without comparable credits or qualifications, I'll have to go with the former.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#16
Quote by Tonto Goldstien
You're correct in noting that, in practice, chords like "C2" are often written as "Cadd9."

It's simply a question of accuracy.

In any event, no disrespect intended, but if I have to choose between a world-renowned musician/educator who developed the harmony and theory curriculum used at a world-famous school and a person without comparable credits or qualifications, I'll have to go with the former.

Who cares about "qualifications"? I've never seen a "C2" chord, but I see "Cadd9" a lot. In fact, I would be confused if I saw a 2 chord.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Apr 27, 2015,
#17
Quote by theogonia777
None of you dummies seem to have realized that this thread is ancient.




This matters because...?
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#18
Quote by Elintasokas
Who cares about "qualifications"?


Um, just about everyone in the professional world?

Quote by Elintasokas


I've never seen a "C2" chord, but I see "Cadd9" a lot. In fact, I would be confused if I saw a 2 chord.


I guess it depends on the musical world in which you live.

For example, if you are a pro who works in studios (or in almost any other capacity) in L.A., then you'll see "C2" or "C5/2" on a regular basis on charts (far more often than "Cadd9.")

If you work in Nashville, you'll get charts with the numbering system.

If you're a Berklee guy, then you will probably see "add9" and "CΔ7" instead of "CMA7."
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
Last edited by Tonto Goldstien at Apr 27, 2015,
#19
Quote by 08L1V10N
Csus4 |x3301x
Fsus2 |x3301x

Csus4 = 1 - 4 - 5
C F G

Fsus2 = 1 - 2 - 5
F - G C

Is this correct what I'm saying?


With a few exceptions, when you have a bunch of intervals stacked together, then one of these stands out the most, and its root becomes the chord root.

I will write a lesson on this shortly, but for now, if one or more perfect 5th's are present, then the root of the lowest pitched perfect 5th is the chord root ... and the root of a perfect 5th interval is its lower pitch.

Above: C - G is a p5, so C is root.
Likewise: F - C is a p5, so F is root.

Once you have established the root, the other intervals can be measured from that root, to figure out the chord type.

cheers, Jerry
#20
Necrobump. Closin it up.
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#21
Quote by Tonto Goldstien
Um, just about everyone in the professional world?


I guess it depends on the musical world in which you live.

For example, if you are a pro who works in studios (or in almost any other capacity) in L.A., then you'll see "C2" or "C5/2" on a regular basis on charts (far more often than "Cadd9.")

If you work in Nashville, you'll get charts with the numbering system.

If you're a Berklee guy, then you will probably see "add9" and "CΔ7" instead of "CMA7."

I have never seen a C2 chord anywhere. It's commonly known as Cadd9. I think that's because you add the notes on top of the triad, just like you add extensions on top of 7th chords.

But whatever, it's an old thread.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
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Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#23
Quote by MaggaraMarine
I have never seen a C2 chord anywhere. It's commonly known as Cadd9. I think that's because you add the notes on top of the triad, just like you add extensions on top of 7th chords.

But whatever, it's an old thread.


As mentioned in the excerpt from the G.I.T. curriculum, "add9," although commonly used. is not really accurate insofar as the chord contains no 7th. Therefore, "C2" is more accurate.

I see "C2" and "C5/2" all the time in song transcriptions in various guitar mags.
(I can't help but assume those transcribers went to M.I.)

Not sure where you make your living in the music industry, but in L.A. you will see "C2" and "C5/2" in charts and lead sheets every day of the week.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#24
Quote by Elintasokas
Nowhere.

I've never seen "C2" on the Internet, so I doubt many people use it IRL either.


Wait a minute...

Because you haven't seen it on the Internet, it must not exist?

Oy vey!

At any rate, do you realize what you are suggesting here?

G.I.T. - a world famous school established in the late 70s - has been giving lord knows how many hundreds of thousands of students misinformation all this time?

And nobody noticed until just now on UG?

Really?
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#25
Quote by Elintasokas
Nowhere.

I've never seen "C2" on the Internet, so I doubt many people use it IRL either.


Just did a quick Google search for "C2 chord" and I got a gazillion results.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#27
Quote by Tonto Goldstien

And read the replies. Both refer to them as add9 XD

Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr

Also: those chords are both named incorrectly; they're both add9 chords, so Cadd9 and Gadd9.


Quote by BenTunessence

For the Cadd9 (or C2)
Last edited by Elintasokas at Apr 27, 2015,
#28
Quote by Elintasokas
And read the replies. Both refer to them as add9 XD


Are you going to give the replies more weight than the diagrams themselves?

And what about that Google search (as regards your original argument that, because you have never seen "C2" on the Internet, it must not be used "IRL?")

Here's the bottom line:

It's true that many musicians use the symbol "Cadd9" in lieu of "C2."

However, that doesn't mean "Cadd9" is the most accurate way to represent the chord.

It's just like the English language:

Many words and phrases that are grammatically incorrect nonetheless find common usage.

There's your "add9" chord.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#29
Quote by Tonto Goldstien
Are you going to give the replies more weight than the diagrams themselves?

And what about that Google search (as regards your original argument that, because you have never seen "C2" on the Internet, it must not be used "IRL?")

Here's the bottom line:

It's true that many musicians use the symbol "Cadd9" in lieu of "C2."

However, that doesn't mean "Cadd9" is the most accurate way to represent the chord.

It's just like the English language:

Many words and phrases that are grammatically incorrect nonetheless find common usage.

There's your "add9" chord.

Yeah, fair enough. I guess both are valid.
#30
Quote by Elintasokas
Yeah, fair enough. I guess both are valid.


FWIW, I was skeptical about chord names like "C2" before I went to M.I. (prior to that, I was calling that chord "Cadd9" also) but I started to realize that M.I.'s approach was cleaner and more accurate when it came to representing more modern sounds, e.g., A5/2 = a "stacked fifths" chord (ala Andy Summers, et al.)
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#31
but how do these chords work in modes? which mode is better in context?
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#33
No offense taken.

The question isn't a matter of academic qualifications. Even academic professionals are fallible.

He's saying it's most often a called a Cadd9 but that Cadd2 is more accurate because there is no seventh. That's his reasoning.

I'm not questioning his qualifications. I'm questioning his reasoning and his claim that one name (add2) is "more accurate" than the other.

I felt my reasoning for calling it a 9th instead of a 2nd was sound AND it fits with common nomenclature. win win. If it doesn't make sense to you and his reasoning sits better with you then that's cool.

Also would an added 6 and 9 then be called a C6/2 chord instead of a C6/9 chord?

You don't have to believe everything that someone says because they have qualifications. Of course you would do well to listen with an open mind to what they have to say, but ultimately you have to make up your own mind.
Si
#34
Quote by Tonto Goldstien
FWIW, I was skeptical about chord names like "C2" before I went to M.I. (prior to that, I was calling that chord "Cadd9" also) but I started to realize that M.I.'s approach was cleaner and more accurate when it came to representing more modern sounds, e.g., A5/2 = a "stacked fifths" chord (ala Andy Summers, et al.)
I doubt either way is,"more accurate" The simple fact of the matter is, "a stacked 5ths chord", is a run of the mill "power chord". Which is something all of us and the heavy metal death rock children have been calling them for years. Designated "x5' or "whatever 5". Andy McKee didn't really think of these, and he's far from the only person using them.

As to whether or not they're even chords, has been the topic of many, many, threads here.

As far as the "add9" notation goes, it is my understanding that designation is specifically reserved for a chord with a 9th interval, which lacks a 7th.

In reverse order, it has to have a 7th, before it can become damned old common, "C9". 7 plus 2 is 9, the same as it was in second grade. The same is true of chords of the 11th and 13th. 4 plus 7 equals 11, and 6 plus 7 gives you 13. Plain old grade school math is used to derive the chords of the 9th, 11th, & 13th. These are notated x9, x11, & x13 respectively. There's no "add this",or, "suspend that", involved.

Additionally 9th,11th, & 13th chords have to have a 3rd. If it's major then, "C9", if it's minor, then "Cm9".

And like I said earlier, the software designed for notation, (or the tabbers), sometimes cough up crap like, "Amsus4", which kinda doesn't fly either.

Beyond that, you're just arguing po-tay-toe, poh-tah-toe. Just because a chord is inverted, doesn't change its name.

So, if the 9th, (or "add9"), is directly above the root, it should still correctly be called a 9th.

I suppose the "Cliff's Notes" version,v or the "tab" version of the chord might be called C5+2. Because if you call it C5/2 that would indicate you might find the 9th in the bass,ala the "slash chord".
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 28, 2015,
#35
Quote by 20Tigers
No offense taken.

The question isn't a matter of academic qualifications. Even academic professionals are fallible.

He's saying it's most often a called a Cadd9 but that Cadd2 is more accurate because there is no seventh. That's his reasoning.

I'm not questioning his qualifications. I'm questioning his reasoning and his claim that one name (add2) is "more accurate" than the other.

I felt my reasoning for calling it a 9th instead of a 2nd was sound AND it fits with common nomenclature. win win. If it doesn't make sense to you and his reasoning sits better with you then that's cool.

Also would an added 6 and 9 then be called a C6/2 chord instead of a C6/9 chord?

You don't have to believe everything that someone says because they have qualifications. Of course you would do well to listen with an open mind to what they have to say, but ultimately you have to make up your own mind.


The chord name is C2 - not C(add2.)

Re: Your question about C6/9 - this is one of those instances when, despite the logical inconsistencies, tradition won out (much like words or phrases in the English language can be grammatically incorrect but enjoy common usage anyway.)

Re: Qualifications: If they didn't matter, then any schmo whose only experience was flipping burgers at Mickey D's would be able to get a job teaching at Juliard, Berklee, or M.I.

Also, as I pointed out to another forum member, in dismissing established chord symbol nomenclature, you're essentially asking us to believe that a world renowned school has been disseminating misinformation to hundreds of thousands of students from all over the world for the past >35 years.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#37
Quote by Tonto Goldstien
The chord name is C2 - not C(add2.)

Re: Your question about C6/9 - this is one of those instances when, despite the logical inconsistencies, tradition won out (much like words or phrases in the English language can be grammatically incorrect but enjoy common usage anyway.)

Re: Qualifications: If they didn't matter, then any schmo whose only experience was flipping burgers at Mickey D's would be able to get a job teaching at Juliard, Berklee, or M.I.

Also, as I pointed out to another forum member, in dismissing established chord symbol nomenclature, you're essentially asking us to believe that a world renowned school has been disseminating misinformation to hundreds of thousands of students from all over the world for the past >35 years.


I studied basic music theory about 50 years ago, and there was no mention of a "2" chord. It could be that I didn't get far enough, or whichever school didn't get around teaching it that way. But for a notation that makes more sense than "C2", I'd rather go with Csus2. That designation at least, tells me what's going on with the 3rd. You write down simply "C", and I still need the believe there's a triad lurking around somewhere.

EDIT; The notation,"Cadd9" is still valid. But, for that to be so, the C chord has to HAVE a 3rd, but LACK a 7th.

As for C, D,& G,call it what you will.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 28, 2015,
#38
Quote by Elintasokas
They're obviously both used interchangeably and both are common. Why can't we just agree that both are valid?

Exactly.

I think it's more important to use terms that everybody understands. Call whatever you want "the most correct way", but people may not understand you. I see nothing wrong with using "add9". It doesn't have a 7th in it - so what? That's why it's called "add9", not just "9".

As seen in the thread you linked, people thought C2 was actually an incorrect way of naming the Cadd9 chord. That's how I also thought before this thread (because I had never seen a C2 chord). Now I have understood that C2 is also used, and I'm completely fine with it.

Also, GIT is not the only music school there is. I'm sure there are also "people with qualifications" that think add9 is the most correct way.


I have no problem with using C2, as long as it doesn't confuse people. I think it would be a good idea to use the same chord symbols everywhere, be it C2 or Cadd9 or whatever. That will make people less confused.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#39
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Exactly.

I think it's more important to use terms that everybody understands. Call whatever you want "the most correct way", but people may not understand you. I see nothing wrong with using "add9". It doesn't have a 7th in it - so what? That's why it's called "add9", not just "9".
.
I think I solved this. "Cadd9", is C major with a 9th added, but NO 7th. The 3rd is present in the chord.

What we're still in the process of discussing, isn't that chord. That which is being called "C2", lacks the 3rd. And FWIW, I still think Csus2 would be preferable, because it illustrates the movement of the 3rd."Sus4" the "3rd" is a half step sharp of a major 3rd. With the "sus2" notation, the "3rd" is a half step flat, of a minor 2rd.

Does that make sense?
#40
Quote by Captaincranky
I doubt either way is,"more accurate" The simple fact of the matter is, "a stacked 5ths chord", is a run of the mill "power chord". Which is something all of us and the heavy metal death rock children have been calling them for years. Designated "x5' or "whatever 5". Andy McKee didn't really think of these, and he's far from the only person using them.

As to whether or not they're even chords, has been the topic of many, many, threads here.

As far as the "add9" notation goes, it is my understanding that designation is specifically reserved for a chord with a 9th interval, which lacks a 7th.

In reverse order, it has to have a 7th, before it can become damned old common, "C9". 7 plus 2 is 9, the same as it was in second grade. The same is true of chords of the 11th and 13th. 4 plus 7 equals 11, and 6 plus 7 gives you 13. Plain old grade school math is used to derive the chords of the 9th, 11th, & 13th. These are notated x9, x11, & x13 respectively. There's no "add this",or, "suspend that", involved.

Additionally 9th,11th, & 13th chords have to have a 3rd. If it's major then, "C9", if it's minor, then "Cm9".

And like I said earlier, the software designed for notation, (or the tabbers), sometimes cough up crap like, "Amsus4", which kinda doesn't fly either.

Beyond that, you're just arguing po-tay-toe, poh-tah-toe. Just because a chord is inverted, doesn't change its name.

So, if the 9th, (or "add9"), is directly above the root, it should still correctly be called a 9th.

I suppose the "Cliff's Notes" version,v or the "tab" version of the chord might be called C5+2. Because if you call it C5/2 that would indicate you might find the 9th in the bass,ala the "slash chord".


A stacked fifth (or quintal) chord, e.g., C5/2, isn't a power chord.

It's a power chord (e.g., C5) with an added 2ond.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
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