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#1
Hey guys,
I'm just starting to get into writing my own music and in my band we have two guitarists so harmonies are going to be needed.

First off i read the article on the website on Guitar harmony by Deafened and it gave me a basic idea of how to write harmonies.
However, i do have one question, which i'd really appreciate if you could help me out with. I have a line I'm harmonizing in 5ths. it involves a B flat note. now, normally in fifths the B will turn into an F note for the harmonized riff. Well if i you continue this method with the B flat it turns into and F flat which doesn't exist. is there a different method of doing things for sharps and flats? Depending on the scale or something? I'd really appreciate your help with this!!

here is the link from the article i read.
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/guitar_techniques/guitar_harmony.html
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#3
F flat can be written as E natural, also. Just like C flat is the same thing as a B natural.
#5
Quote by chaosmoon
F flat can be written as E natural, also. Just like C flat is the same thing as a B natural.
They are absolutely not the same thing. They have the same pitch, but you cannot write Fb as E in the Gb minor scale, nor can B# written as C in the C# major scale.
#6
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They are absolutely not the same thing. They have the same pitch, but you cannot write Fb as E in the Gb minor scale, nor can B# written as C in the C# major scale.

They're the same pitch but are named differently because of the way it progresses.

EDIT: may not have made that clear enough but if you understand what I said there then maybe I just confused myself heheh
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#7
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They are absolutely not the same thing. They have the same pitch, but you cannot write Fb as E in the Gb minor scale, nor can B# written as C in the C# major scale.

Yes, sorry. I wasn't thinking scale-wise, just pitch-wise.
#9
Quote by Sue
By the way, Fb does exist and is necessary for writing the Gb Minor scale.
I can't think of any reason to call it Gb minor instead of F# minor, however a Gdim7 does have an Fb.

Quote by Sue
They are absolutely not the same thing.
I think they are the same thing, but it's given different names to make reading and writing music easier (as in the examples you gave).

EDIT: Talking equal temperament, of course.
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Quote by MudMartin
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#10
Quote by Ænimus Prime
I can't think of any reason to call it Gb minor instead of F# minor, however a Gdim7 does have an Fb.
Nor can I, but it was the first thing that popped into my head.

Quote by Ænimus Prime
I think they are the same thing, but it's given different names to make reading and writing music easier (as in the examples you gave).
They're not the same thing. It's completely wrong to write the C# major scale as C# D# F F# G A C.

Of course, they sound exactly the same, but the distinction comes from ye olde times when they weren't the exact same pitch.
#11
^ there only the same pitch because of the fret spacing

i believe they are ratio's larger than 1. giving you the 12 notes making up the 19 notes.and if i am not mistaken usually expressd as a fraction larger than 1 ei 5/4 or 3/2

a 19tet guitar and fretless guitar can play 19 pitches/notes whatever you want to call it where as our 12 tet cannot.

to sum it up there are 19 notes but our guitars can only play 12
#12
Quote by Sue
They're not the same thing. It's completely wrong to write the C# major scale as C# D# F F# G A C.
You mean C# D# F F# G# A# C, and I do know this. But I think it's only wrong because that would be harder to read/write, not because they are different.

EDIT: by equal temperament, I meant 12TET.
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Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#13
Edit : actually i didn't know and see that sorry
Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jun 26, 2008,
#14
Quote by sublime
to sum it up there are 19 notes but our guitars can only play 12
No, in 19TET there are 19 tones, in 12TET there are 12 tones. These two systems, I beleive, only have one tone in common.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#15
If your doing 5ths try using parallel 5ths rather than diatonic 5ths. An easy way to do this is to play the same lick 7 frets higher on the neck (as long as you're not using open strings) same fingering. Listen to the lick at around 2:35 on my tune Lucky Number 8 (not a shameless self promotion). The lick is harmonized using parallel 5ths.
#16
Quote by Ænimus Prime
No, in 19TET there are 19 tones, in 12TET there are 12 tones. These two systems, I beleive, only have one tone in common.



same difference
#17
Well the way you worded it 'there are 19 notes but our guitars can only play 12', was pretty misleading.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#19
If you and the other guitarist have an understanding of how 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, etc. work then it will be hella easier.

just find a note of a scale, move up 4 notes in the same scale and *bam*! you're playing 5ths. Once you get the patterns down its a breeze.

There's also different ways of playing with harmonies. I'm a big fan of having the harmonies moving away from eachother. Whenever one is going up the other is going down. Have him play a lick going down the neck while you're going up.

It sounds really good when the harmonies meet, follow eachother, move away, and then meet again.
#20
Quote by Ænimus Prime
You mean C# D# F F# G# A# C, and I do know this. But I think it's only wrong because that would be harder to read/write, not because they are different.

EDIT: by equal temperament, I meant 12TET.


*raises flame shield before asking question*

so to make the c# maj scale diatonic, it should be C# D# E# F# G# A# B# ?

maybe off topic, yes/no answer will do though
#21
So, back to the original question. TS, are you trying to write in diatonic 5ths? If so, what key are you writing in? In the major scale the 5th of the leading tone will be diminished so only in C major (or A minor) would the 5th of B be F. It's more likely that the 5th of your Bb would be F unless you're playing in Cb major (or Ab minor).

Someone let me know if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Eirien at Jun 27, 2008,
#22
Quote by Helpy Helperton
*raises flame shield before asking question*

so to make the c# maj scale diatonic, it should be C# D# E# F# G# A# B# ?

maybe off topic, yes/no answer will do though



yes thats diatonic

I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii*-I

so yeah C#-E#minor-G# or what ever its diatonic as long as you follow the triads you'll be fine

in music theory their are E sharps but their actually F's
the same with B# or Fb's B# is actually C and Fb is actually E
the reason why they do this is so you wont get confused

so viewing it as C#D#E#F#G#A#B#C# is so much easier then seeing
C#D#F F# G# A# C C#

thats kinda ...wa? to me that throws me off when people do it that way
cause i mean look at it...C#F G# thats correcet but its written funny
it should be seen as C# E# G#

lol i dunno maybe some people find it easy that way but i was taught
that way and find it easy to understand
but yeah what ever works for you
#23
Quote by Eirien
So, back to the original question. TS, are you trying to write in diatonic 5ths? If so, what key are you writing in? In the major scale the 5th of the leading tone will be diminished so only in C major (or A minor) would the 5th of B be F. It's more likely that the 5th of your Bb would be F unless you're playing in Cb major (or Ab minor).

Someone let me know if I'm wrong.


no if its a major and the 5th it would also be major
cause the fifth is a V chord unless you mean major scale as in Locrian
then it would be Diminished

gah now i have to read the whole post lol
#24
Oh my goodness I am lost.
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#25
Quote by Phrygian_12
no if its a major and the 5th it would also be major
cause the fifth is a V chord unless you mean major scale as in Locrian
then it would be Diminished

gah now i have to read the whole post lol


Erm, what? Who mentioned chords or modes? Maybe I worded it confusingly; The interval between the leading tone and the note a diatonic 5th above it (in the major scale) is a diminished 5th.
#26
Quote by Eirien
Erm, what? Who mentioned chords or modes? Maybe I worded it confusingly; The interval between the leading tone and the note a diatonic 5th above it (in the major scale) is a diminished 5th.



but your saying Diatonic that means your following the Major scale since thats what Diatonic is

can you explain this?

im not sure what your saying
could you be taking about a raised 4th?
#27
The leading tone is the 7th degree of the scale.

C major is C D E F G A B

So the leading tone is B.

If we count up five notes from B we get F (B C D E F).

F is not a perfect 5th above B it is a diminished 5th.

Making any sense yet?
#28
Quote by Eirien
The leading tone is the 7th degree of the scale.

C major is C D E F G A B

So the leading tone is B.

If we count up five notes from B we get F (B C D E F).

F is not a perfect 5th above B it is a diminished 5th.

Making any sense yet?


oh wait i was misunderstanding i thought you ment the 5th degree was a Diminished lol
yeah i was going to say what the heck are you talking about lol
yeah thats a natural Diminished "BDF"

so what your talking about is a vii* right?

-.- sorry ive been up all night trying to guitar intonation...god i hate Trems
so sorry if its in front of my face and im just not seeing it lol

im not use to the whole "Lead Tonic" and all that type of Terminology
although i should get use to it if i hope to be a M.I. Student or berklee(ive heard that its not a good school cause most people that go there are slackers and just trying to find an excuse to not get jobs after high school and all that so the teachers dont take some or most of the students seriously)
#29
Quote by synystagates
Oh my goodness I am lost.

Ignoring everyone that posted something useless to you, and to be concise:

The fifth of B is F#, not F as you posted. (it's ok, easy mistake)

B major scale: B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#
Count the notes to 5 because you're harmonizing in 5ths: 1-B, 2-C#, 3-D#, 4-E, 5-F#
F# is the 5th


Now you're harmonizing Bb with a 5th, the 5th of Bb is F.

Bb major scale: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A
Count the notes: 1-Bb, 2-C, 3-D, 4- E, 5-F
F is the 5th of Bb
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#30
Quote by metal4all
Ignoring everyone that posted something useless to you, and to be concise:

The fifth of B is F#, not F as you posted. (it's ok, easy mistake)

B major scale: B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#
Count the notes to 5 because you're harmonizing in 5ths: 1-B, 2-C#, 3-D#, 4-E, 5-F#
F# is the 5th


Now you're harmonizing Bb with a 5th, the 5th of Bb is F.

Bb major scale: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A
Count the notes: 1-Bb, 2-C, 3-D, 4- E, 5-F
F is the 5th of Bb



if you know your triads its a lot easier

B Major Chord

BD#F# since chords are your Root-3rd and 5th
B D# F#

your in a major you harmonize say B Ionian (major scale) you would play the 5th Degree of the scale which would be Mixolydian your 3rd would be Phrygian so on and so on


Chords are actually just scales in harmony

Root 3rd and 5th

you add other harmony's just by following any 7 of the degrees
most of the time every one uses 3rds cause the 3rd determines what gender a scale is(Major or minor)if you just play the root with the 5th its pretty much a power chord

just try experimenting with different degrees music has no rules
who said you cant play so and so over this and that or what ever
Last edited by Phrygian_12 at Jun 27, 2008,
#31
I'm well aware that it's easier to know your triads to figure it out but if the TS doesn't know that an Fb note exists, I'm not too sure how well their chord theory is.

Edit: no offense TS
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Last edited by metal4all at Jun 27, 2008,
#32
Quote by metal4all
I'm well aware that it's easier to know your triads to figure it out but if the TS doesn't know that an Fb note exists, I'm not too sure how well their chord theory is.

Edit: no offense TS


ah i didnt think about that
the way you explained it was very simple and easy to understand

i have no idea why i posted the same thing but with triads lol

well he could learn about them and then they would save him alot of time
specially when jamming with some one and they keep doing the same thing and you get the idea of what their playing you could play a harmony of what ever their improvising on but yeah i hope TS understands it im pretty sure the way you said it he will
#33
^Thank you, that means a lot considering one day i'm hoping to be able to teach guitar.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#34
If I'm not mistaken, the original post in this thread says that the root of the harmony is a B flat. The fifth of Bb is F. So he was right. He was just confused because he didn't realize that the B-F interval is a tritone, and flatted both of them to fit his song.

MT likes to make things more complicated than they are.
#35
Quote by coffeeguy9
If I'm not mistaken, the original post in this thread says that the root of the harmony is a B flat. The fifth of Bb is F. So he was right. He was just confused because he didn't realize that the B-F interval is a tritone, and flatted both of them to fit his song.

MT likes to make things more complicated than they are.

*cough* look at my post *cough*
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#36
Quote by metal4all
^Thank you, that means a lot considering one day i'm hoping to be able to teach guitar.

thats cool same here i hope to be a music teacher
im a guitar teacher actually but not for music theory(Yet)

i just help people build chops and help them get comfortable with the guitar

hope you become a teacher soon!

-peace
#37
yeah Im just starting up with guitar theory and stuff guys so its all new and my chord theory is crap lol. So basically I can just count them off ( 3ds 5ths, etc) by whatever the note is in its major scale..if that makes sense. So if I wanted to harmonoize something in thirds that had a C# I count of 3 notes of the C sharp major scale?
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#38
Yes.

If you wanted the 3rd of C# you would either think of the C# major scale or a C# triad (easier).

C# major scale: C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#
C# triad: C#, E#, G# (major triad intervals are 1,3,5 so the second note, E#, is the 3rd)

Counting to 3, you see that E# is the 3rd of C#.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#40
But, since im a noob at this, how would you play an e#, I know it exists now but how would you play the note? Does it just count as an F?

nevermind I gotcha..it is F..okay I think I'm understanding this better. Is ther anything else I need to know for writing harmonies?

Also I know this is off topic but I'm reading the theory on bangoodcharleottes sig and I got lost on circle of 5ths. he starts talking about adding flats and sharps going clockwise and that lost me. if anyone could help me clear that up I'd appreciate that too.
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Last edited by synystagates at Jun 28, 2008,
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