Poll: Should apes have the same rights as humans.
Poll Options
View poll results: Should apes have the same rights as humans.
Yes, they are some distant relatives of our species.
15 15%
No, I like seeing them in Zoo's and in Circuses to much.
87 85%
Voters: 102.
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#2
if apes get it, why not all animals?

i see where this is going, and it's not a good direction.

edit: your 2nd option is a harsh way of putting it. i refuse to vote that.
"And after all of this, I am amazed...

...that I am cursed far more than I am praised."
#4



who saw that coming?
Quote by _-=Ali C=-_
i do it a lot. ill be playin somethin and i forget to close my mouth... sometimes its really bad, slobber everywhere. i goes mostly over the neck, on the higher frets, and its really hard to get out from under the strings.
#5
Quote by Captain Insano

Should apes have the same rights as humans? Some people in the Spanish parliament do.

I like how you said that. Your sentence implies that some people in the Spanish government are apes.

And my answer is no. Monkeys are not humans (pit monkeys might be though - but that's a different story alltogether).

I'm curious if Kensai's 25% rule will work here.
#6
You'd be surprised actually. Many of the great apes are able to learn sign language and feel genuine grief and sadness.

There are very few differences between the other great apes and humans (seeing as we are great apes ourselves), human beings are essentially just slightly more complex.

I do believe that they should be given far more rights than they currently have.
#7
No.
Do you see apes running governments and countries??? (no George Bush pun)...


So yeah, unless you're on the planet of apes, they don't need to get equal rights as humans. And who are we to give rights to apes?

If they're that concerned, they'll create their own rights system. Or atleast fight for their rights. But no, they don't give a **** so we giving them rights will make no difference.
And if apes, then even tigers, dogs and polar bears should be given rights too!
#8
Quote by Atreideslegend
god theyre trying to teach apes to talk, ffs....

They've actually taught gorillas and orang-utans to use sign language.

They can't teach them verbal language because their mouths aren't formed in the same way as humans so it is impossible for them to form the sounds necessary.
#9
Quote by af_the_fragile
No.
Do you see apes running governments and countries??? (no George Bush pun)...


So yeah, unless you're on the planet of apes, they don't need to get equal rights as humans. And who are we to give rights to apes? If they're that concerned, they'll create their own rights system.

lol! Ape hater?
Quote by _-=Ali C=-_
i do it a lot. ill be playin somethin and i forget to close my mouth... sometimes its really bad, slobber everywhere. i goes mostly over the neck, on the higher frets, and its really hard to get out from under the strings.
#12
I can't believe they referenced Martin Luther King in the article.

Because of this stereotype:

Quote by Mgllpz09
well we already have apes running around nd all they do is shoot ppl.
Last edited by StraightxXxEdge at Jul 2, 2008,
#13
Quote by af_the_fragile
There definitely wasn't any hating in my post....!
Except for maybe mr. bush!

Haha xD
ok


Well uhm, maybe it wouldn't even that surprising... I mean my neighbours are allowed to live in a house, too lol =D
Quote by _-=Ali C=-_
i do it a lot. ill be playin somethin and i forget to close my mouth... sometimes its really bad, slobber everywhere. i goes mostly over the neck, on the higher frets, and its really hard to get out from under the strings.
#14
Quote by rizo299
You'd be surprised actually. Many of the great apes are able to learn sign language and feel genuine grief and sadness.


No, apes cannot learn sign language. What they can do is respond to stimulus in the correct manner from learned behaviour, which is what every animal can achieve. The difference between that and language is that with a human language you can create and express abstract ideas with innovation.

e.g. i can say to you "why dont you put a spoon up ure ass and go **** seven hundred and twenty three purple and white ducks" and know it makes sense without ever hearing the words before in that order. NO OTHER ANIMAL CAN DO THIS. Period.

Lol just read that and it sounds kinda aggressive, didnt mean it like that sorry!
Last edited by Atreideslegend at Jul 2, 2008,
#16
Quote by Mgllpz09
well we already have apes running around nd all they do is shoot ppl.

i'm trying to wonder where you're going with this...
#17
Quote by Atreideslegend
No, apes cannot learn sign language. What they can do is respond to stimulus in the correct manner from learned behaviour, which is what every animal can achieve. The difference between that and language is that with a human language you can create and express abstract ideas with innovation.

e.g. i can say to you "why dont you put a spoon up ure ass and go **** seven hundred and twenty three purple and white ducks" and know it makes sense without ever hearing the words before in that order. NO OTHER ANIMAL CAN DO THIS. Period.

Actually, the apes that have been taught sign language have been shown to use language creatively and not in a manner that shows simple rote taught repetition.

For example, nobody taught koko the sign language speaking gorilla the word for ring. When she encountered a ring for the first time she combined the words for finger and bracelet to call it a finger bracelet showing a creative understanding of language.
#18
Quote by af_the_fragile
i'm trying to wonder where you're going with this...



im just gonna keep it at that lol
#19
Quote by rizo299
Actually, the apes that have been taught sign language have been shown to use language creatively and not in a manner that shows simple rote taught repetition.

For example, nobody taught koko the sign language speaking gorilla the word for ring. When she encountered a ring for the first time she combined the words for finger and bracelet to call it a finger bracelet showing a creative understanding of language.


That is nowhere near conclusive evidence, all that shows is that she saw what looked like a bracelet and said "bracelet" and then saw it was on her finger and said "finger", she's still only reacting to literal stimulus, there is nothing abstract about that. In fact it's possible that she didnt even see any relation between the two things at all.
#20
This might sound weird, but what seperates animals from humans is the ability to form ideas and being creative, having an imagination. If you like to call it that way, it is the ability to think. Only the homo sapiens sapiens is capable of doing this, not even our predecessing species or the neanderthal men were able to do this, and those outclassed any apes by far when it comes to intellect.

That's were I draw the line. If you're not able to think, you're an animal and don't get human rights. That doesn't mean it's okay to be cruel to animals or anything like that.
#21
Quote by Atreideslegend
That is nowhere near conclusive evidence, all that shows is that she saw what looked like a bracelet and said "bracelet" and then saw it was on her finger and said "finger", she's still only reacting to literal stimulus, there is nothing abstract about that.

It shows that she's able to form new names for objects she's never encountered before by relying on past experience and knowledge of language.

It shows that she's able to see that language is more than simple rote repetition which requires a deeper level of understanding.

Obviously she's not going to start using her mastery of language to write a novel or what ever, but she has a similar level of cognitive understanding as a young human child.
Quote by TheQuailman
This might sound weird, but what seperates animals from humans is the ability to form ideas and being creative, having an imagination. If you like to call it that way, it is the ability to think. Only the homo sapiens sapiens is capable of doing this, not even our predecessing species or the neanderthal men were able to do this, and those outclassed any apes by far when it comes to intellect.

That's were I draw the line. If you're not able to think, you're an animal and don't get human rights. That doesn't mean it's okay to be cruel to animals or anything like that.


That's massively condescending. Many animals show the ability to imagine. And we have no idea of the Neanderthal's ability to imagine.

And if you're basing you're judgements on the ability to think, well elephants can think. Elephants are self aware.

I'm not saying we should start going about releasing all the animals an treating them exactly like people because they're not.

But we should get off our high horses and realise that there's actually not a lot separating us from them.
Last edited by rizo299 at Jul 2, 2008,
#24
Some species of apes are surprisingly intelligent. I think it's chimpanzees that have been judged to have the same level of intelligence as a 5 year old human child. They can speak sign language and handle pretty abstract concepts. For example, in one experiment, they'd taught an ape to respond to the command to fetch a glass of water. When doing the experiment one time, the ape didn't fetch the glass. It just pointed out of the window. They repeated the command to get water, but the ape still pointed out of the window. When they looked outside, it was raining. Chimpanzees are also altruistic.

That shows a pretty high level of intelligence. However, the laws are a different question. I can understand not being allowed to kill apes or use them for medical research. But not allowing them to be held captive stops zoos and captive breeding programmes, which isn't a good thing.
#25
Nope, because it will be a slippery slope. First apes get rights, then people want dolphins to have rights, then you got people wanting dogs and cats to get rights. Everything's fine the way it is now.
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#26
Quote by af_the_fragile
Dolphins are supposedly the most intelligent animals after humans...
What bout them???....

Dolphins are certainly very intelligent animals, however its difficult to get any kind of comparative measurement of their intelligence when compared to humans because of the massive physical differences.
Quote by FloyDZeD
Nope, because it will be a slippery slope. First apes get rights, then people want dolphins to have rights, then you got people wanting dogs and cats to get rights. Everything's fine the way it is now.

A slippery slope to what? People treating animals with respect?
#27
@rizo:
If animals can think, than that's fine. But I have not seen any proof of it so far (and to be honest: I doubt I ever will).
About the Neanderthal Men: Scientists assume they were not capable of imagination because they didn't leave any signs of creativity - drawings in caves or stuff like that, unlike the early homo sapiens.

I'm not arguing, just trying to explain my point.
#28
Well my whole point here is the apes don't give a ****!
They don't give a **** what we do for them cuz they've got lives of their own and they have their own set of rules by which they live.
What do you mean by giving equal rights to apes?
Set up a crime and justice system for them? give them a proper housing and shelter? Set up stores for them to shop or recreation?

The fact is they won't give a crap. They'll continue to live in forests hanging off trees and fighting for food and survival. Cuz thats how they're meant to be. Thats how nature wants them to be. We can't do anything that'll change their lifestyle and make it better.

And treating apes with respect,
well i think not just apes but all the animals should be treated with respect.
Just cuz apes have a slightly higher intelligence doesn't give them any major edge over the other animals. It like if some dude is retarded, its okay to throw stones at him cuz he's got lower intelligence.
#29
Quote by SmarterChild
When doing the experiment one time, the ape didn't fetch the glass. It just pointed out of the window. They repeated the command to get water, but the ape still pointed out of the window. When they looked outside, it was raining. Chimpanzees are also altruistic.


You dont seem to understand. This doesnt proove that the ape had any idea that the glass of water and the rain were in any way related to each other. It is us the humans that understand a relationship between the two and impose our own conclusions onto the ape. There could be hundreds of reasons why the ape pointed out the window at that time. Maybe the rain scared it? Maybe it decided it wanted to go outside? Maybe it liked the colour of the window pane?

The point is that these things are all ONE OFF occasions. E.g. x ape at y time reacted in z manner. Which means that we have absolutely no idea what stimulus it was reacting to! If 200 apes all reacted in the same way in exactly the same position then we might be able to second guess the stimulus but one is not enough to proove anything.
#30
Quote by Atreideslegend
You dont seem to understand. This doesnt proove that the ape had any idea that the glass of water and the rain were in any way related to each other. It is us the humans that understand a relationship between the two and impose our own conclusions onto the ape. There could be hundreds of reasons why the ape pointed out the window at that time. Maybe the rain scared it? Maybe it decided it wanted to go outside? Maybe it liked the colour of the window pane?

The point is that these things are all ONE OFF occasions. E.g. x ape at y time reacted in z manner. Which means that we have absolutely no idea what stimulus it was reacting to! If 200 apes all reacted in the same way in exactly the same position then we might be able to second guess the stimulus but one is not enough to proove anything.

Were you present at the experiment? I highly doubt it. I'd much rather trust the view of the scientists conducting the experiments. You're imposing your own conclusion onto the ape, with less evidence than the people involved.
Last edited by SmarterChild at Jul 2, 2008,
#31
I was going to make a Brown vs. Board of Education joke here, but I'm not bold enough

No I don't think they should share the same rights as humans though.
#32
Quote by SmarterChild
Were you present at the experiment? I highly doubt it. I'd much rather believe the view of the scientists conducting the experiments. You're imposing your own conclusion onto the ape, with less evidence than the people involved.


So you'd rather believe a few scientists with nothing but anecdotal evidence rather than the 99.9% of modern biologists, naturalists and linguists that happen to be on side with some of the best thinkers in the world?

Meh, your prerogative i guess

The point is if you can find genuinely scientific and conclusive evidence supported by mass empirical evidence that apes have the capacity to form human language i will cut off and eat my own penis.
#33
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Napoleon ftw!
sometimes I see us in a cymbal splash or in the sound of a car crash
#34
Keep in mind that scientists tend to be too enthusiastic and often are not trying to find a correct answer, but will view anything as proof that fits their assumptions (Humans just are like that). We had the same thing with dolphins: Sure they are intelligent, but currently many scientists believe that they are far dumber than we have thought in the last thirty or so years. I think we should be careful about this stuff, one ape doesn't prove anything.

Quote by JohnnyGenzale
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Napoleon ftw!


God, I have to watch that movie again...
#35
Quote by Atreideslegend
The point is if you can find genuinely scientific and conclusive evidence supported by mass empirical evidence that apes have the capacity to form human language i will cut off and eat my own penis.
In the think tank at the National Zoo in D.C. the apes have little touch screen computers and match names to objects (example: picture of an apple to the word "apple" and such). I think that's close enough to qualify, be sure to make a video - this could be the next BME Pain Olympics!
#36
Quote by TheQuailman
Keep in mind that scientists tend to be too enthusiastic and often are not trying to find a correct answer, but will view anything as proof that fits their assumptions (Humans just are like that). We had the same thing with dolphins: Sure they are intelligent, but currently many scientists believe that they are far dumber than we have thought in the last thirty or so years. I think we should be careful about this stuff, one ape doesn't prove anything.



God, I have to watch that movie again...

Hence why scientific method and peer review will route that out.
#37
Quote by af_the_fragile
Do you see apes running governments and countries??? (no George Bush pun)...


They successfully run their own societies and have done so for as long as humans have.

Quote by af_the_fragile

If they're that concerned, they'll create their own rights system. Or atleast fight for their rights. But no, they don't give a **** so we giving them rights will make no difference.
And if apes, then even tigers, dogs and polar bears should be given rights too!


That is moronic. Babies don't fight for their rights (party not inclusive) and we give them rights. Same with children and the severely mentally disabled.

The argument is not to give dogs or polar bears rights, but apes. Since they are as close to human as anything on this earth. So I can't imagine extending rights to dogs or fleas or whatever stupidity you're professing.

I voted for no, by the way.
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#38
Apes should not have equal rights, before you know it they'll be wanting compensation for the years they and they're ancestors spent in captivity.

/lame attempt at humour

But seriously though, they're just animals. They aren't like us, some experiments have 'proven' that they are creative by sticking a piece of canvas infront of them along with a brush and some paint. Some of the apes may have figured out how to use those things and displayed that by painting random strokes. Random strokes are not creative, furthermore, apes cannot create a masterpiece, they cannot appreciate art.

Quote by RU Experienced?
In the think tank at the National Zoo in D.C. the apes have little touch screen computers and match names to objects (example: picture of an apple to the word "apple" and such). I think that's close enough to qualify, be sure to make a video - this could be the next BME Pain Olympics!


/FACEPAML!

If an ape saw this thread do you suppose it would understand one single bloddy word?
Just like the guy below me said, they learn what a certain word looks like and such. Do you have any idea exactly how these experiments are conducted? For all you know they words to choose from may be 'apple, xylophone, it, antidisestablishmentarianism'. Doesn't seem so impressive to recognise the word 'apple' now does it.
Quote by Lord Of Donkeys
The only thing I can remember though is beating the hell out of a beaver's skull. Also I think there were Pokemon there.
Last edited by aviators at Jul 2, 2008,
#39
Quote by RU Experienced?
In the think tank at the National Zoo in D.C. the apes have little touch screen computers and match names to objects (example: picture of an apple to the word "apple" and such). I think that's close enough to qualify, be sure to make a video - this could be the next BME Pain Olympics!


*HITS HEAD ON DESK*

Again this is just direct reaction to stimulus, i'll try this one more time in laymans terms.

Ape see picture. Ape given buttons. Ape press right button, ape get fed. *The next day* Ape given picture. Ape given buttons. Ape associates picture with certain button, button with food. Ape hungry, press button, get fed.

If you really thing this is language then i give up.
#40
Quote by darthteet
They successfully run their own societies and have done so for as long as humans have.


That is moronic. Babies don't fight for their rights (party not inclusive) and we give them rights. Same with children and the severely mentally disabled.

The argument is not to give dogs or polar bears rights, but apes. Since they are as close to human as anything on this earth. So I can't imagine extending rights to dogs or fleas or whatever stupidity you're professing.

I voted for no, by the way.

But what sorta rights could you give to an ape?
How will it benefit from any such right??
Its already living its own life in its own community. Its not that much concerned bout what humans do. Its got a life of its own which constituted hanging from trees and fighting for food n survival as a part of nature.
Thats my main point...
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