#1
okay, im saqt here doin a project essay thing. and one the tasks are:

Identify example of modulation (change of key)

and my piece changes from Eharmonic minor to A Dorian to D mixolydian ect...

because i change mode, does that mean i change key?
#2
you can change mode and not change key eg going from D dorian to F lydian
but going from E harmonic minor to A dorian is a definite key change id say...
Going from A dorian to D mixolydian isnt changing key though.
#3
Yes, I think so as you are chaning from A to D, your not staying under one key and just changing its mode.
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#4
ok, its just that in my piece i the key signature is Eminor. and E harmonic Minor doesnt have its own key sig, or does it?
#5
Well, the key signature is the same, but the tonic is different. I'd say you're changing keys, because of the different location of tonic.

EDIT: E harmonic minor doesn't have it's own key signature, you'd use the same one as for E natural minor. One sharp all the way through.
#6
There is a difference between changing key and changing tonal centre

going from A dorian to D mixolydian , you are staying in the key of G
but your tonal centre changes from A to D. the tonal centre is the reference tone or 'home' tone that your progression is based upon.
#7
This is so confusing... shall i just write about change tonal centre?
#8
Quote by cokeisbetter
E harmonic minor doesn't have it's own key signature, you'd use the same one as for E natural minor. One sharp all the way through.


Thats an interesting point - E harmonic minor is considered the same key as E minor ? even though the chords built off the scale are completely different?
#9
Quote by stueey
This is so confusing... shall i just write about change tonal centre?

Could you post your whole chord progression?
#10
yea sure.

Eminor, Aminor7, D7, Gmajor and B7.

thats i, iv, bIIV, bIII, V isnt it?
#11
Quote by BluesShredUK
Thats an interesting point - E harmonic minor is considered the same key as E minor ? even though the chords built off the scale are completely different?

It's not the same key, but the signature is the same. You'd just add in the D# as an accidental note.
#12
well youre pretty much staying in the E minor key, with one chord from E harmonic minor, your tonal centre stays with E though. So you arent really modulating at all. To me , a modulation is when the chord progression changes to chords from another key, not when you borrow a non-diatonic chord for your progression

edit: that was explained very badly , sorry!
Last edited by BluesShredUK at Jul 3, 2008,
#13
okay, its just that in my essay i wrote about the different modes i was using. shall i say the key signature doesnt change, but the tonal centre does? or just say i dont change key, but i change modes that are somewhat relevant to minor key?
#14
Quote by stueey
yea sure.

Eminor, Aminor7, D7, Gmajor and B7.

thats i, iv, bIIV, bIII, V isnt it?


Pretty much except a bit of dyslexia on the bVII.

There's not really a modulation key change there. It's all the key of E minor.

You wouldn't consider E harmonic minor a key change (over the B7). It's just the
minor form you use when you harmonically adjust the minor key for a V7 chord.

A-7 -> D7 -> Gmaj7 might be considered a modultation to the relative major, but
since ithe chords are all diatonic, I don't think it's significant enough.
#15
Quote by edg
Pretty much except a bit of dyslexia on the bVII.

There's not really a modulation key change there. It's all the key of E minor.

You wouldn't consider E harmonic minor a key change (over the B7). It's just the
minor form you use when you harmonically adjust the minor key for a V7 chord.

A-7 -> D7 -> Gmaj7 might be considered a modultation to the relative major, but
since ithe chords are all diatonic, I don't think it's significant enough.


oh ok. shall mention it anyway. that clear things up alot, still not 100% tho
#16
I dont think youre changing key or tonal centre id write about the fact that you substituted the dominant V in your progression for a stronger resolution to the tonic. And then talk about what modes you could use for your melody, eg you could use E aeolian for the first part and E harmonic minor for the final chord
#17
^+1
Modes are not the same as keys, it's a issue that continually comes up in this board. When I think of key signatures I think of the chord progression and the basic melody. Any other fills, solos, transitions may have accidentals that wont fall into the key signature a song is in, but will quickly resolve back to the original key. A ke change would be, for example, if in the middle of a song you went from 'Em' to 'Fm'; where the melody line and chord progression moved up that half step. Also there are only major and minor keys (see: circle of fifths). I refuse to even talk about modes since it is very easy to have what is being explained interpreted the wrong way (i've seen alot of arguments about modes in this board, and I don't want to start one here).
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#19
Quote by zoomy74
^+1
Modes are not the same as keys, it's a issue that continually comes up in this board. When I think of key signatures I think of the chord progression and the basic melody. Any other fills, solos, transitions may have accidentals that wont fall into the key signature a song is in, but will quickly resolve back to the original key. A ke change would be, for example, if in the middle of a song you went from 'Em' to 'Fm'; where the melody line and chord progression moved up that half step. Also there are only major and minor keys (see: circle of fifths). I refuse to even talk about modes since it is very easy to have what is being explained interpreted the wrong way (i've seen alot of arguments about modes in this board, and I don't want to start one here).


It think i have have been missled then. The course I'm on isnt very easy to understand lol
#20
anyway, the essay doesnt say i need to change key, i think they just want me to talk about modes and the Key im using and how they are relevant and so on. it wasnt stressed upto to change key, i think its more of a "you gotta know what you're doing" kinda thing.
#21
Quote by stueey
Eminor, Aminor7, D7, Gmajor and B7.
You're not changing modes in that piece. It's just a common progression where the major V chord is used.

Play E natural minor over the first four chords and E harmonic minor over B7.
#22
Yea... this stuff can get kindof confusing
Youre in the key of Eminor and are using E natural minor/aeolian for the main part , and then borrowing a chord (B7) from E harmonic minor for a really strong V7-I resolution back to the tonic. V7 back to i sounds stronger than v back to i. If you're soloing, u only need to change one note in the scale (b7 to natural 7) for the B7 chord.

FYI E harmonic minor over B7 is B phrygian dominant mode
hope u get a good mark in your essay!
#23
Quote by zoomy74
A ke change would be, for example, if in the middle of a song you went from 'Em' to 'Fm'; where the melody line and chord progression moved up that half step.


LOL nice one Zoomy, gotta love that cheesy half step up modulation!
#24
Quote by BluesShredUK
FYI E harmonic minor over B7 is B phrygian dominant mode
hope u get a good mark in your essay!
If it's a static B7 chord then yes, but if you to the modal breakdown for the B7 chord you have to do it for the others and describe it is E Aeolian, A Dorian, D Mixolydian, G Ionian, and B Phrygian Dominant. This is far more confusing, so the breakdown is unnecessary.
#25
To BluesShredUK, yea I know it's probably the most overused and cheesy modulation out there, but one I figured everyone would have heard b4.
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#26
Quote by bangoodcharlote
If it's a static B7 chord then yes, but if you to the modal breakdown for the B7 chord you have to do it for the others and describe it is E Aeolian, A Dorian, D Mixolydian, G Ionian, and B Phrygian Dominant. This is far more confusing, so the breakdown is unnecessary.


Well, i guess i went to in depth lol. well atleast i know the major modes and harmonic minor and phrygian dominant. Ive learn alot from tryin to write this essay!
#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That's the idea, no?


I think it was ment to prove how much i know. but how would i have found out without this essay? lol
#29
Quote by stueey
Eminor, Aminor7, D7, Gmajor and B7.
Thats a really goofy sounding movement between the Gmaj and the B7. Not sure if I like....

Anyway, +1 to what bangoodcharlotte said, although you might wanna play Emajor over that B7 chord (if your okay with the scale change). It wont sound as dark as E harmonic minor (it would actually sound quite bluesy), but might sound a little goofy between the B7 and the Eminor.
#30
I know, but i really could not be bothered to change it. I think im aloud one dumb move, yet it is down to personal preference, and i do sorta like it the more i hear it.
#31
Quote by demonofthenight
Anyway, +1 to what bangoodcharlotte said, although you might wanna play Emajor over that B7 chord (if your okay with the scale change). It wont sound as dark as E harmonic minor (it would actually sound quite bluesy), but might sound a little goofy between the B7 and the Eminor.
You could try melodic minor if harmonic minor is too dark.


And can't you people spell my fucking username right?


Edit: As long as I'm using a certain smilie, allow me to discuss the use of the aerlian mode. (Ignore this n00bs, it's an inside joke.)
#32
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You could try melodic minor if harmonic minor is too dark.


And can't you people spell my fucking username right?


Edit: As long as I'm using a certain smilie, allow me to discuss the use of the aerlian mode. (Ignore this n00bs, it's an inside joke.)
I dont know whats funnier, the aerlian mode or your trademark arrogance.

Awww, your not too bad Sue (hows that for spelling your name?). We all still love ya.
#33
Quote by demonofthenight
I dont know whats funnier, the aerlian mode or your trademark arrogance. .


arrogance > misspelling
#34
Quote by z4twenny
arrogance > misspelling
I didn't spell it wrong. I meant for the "R" to be there to mock a certain banned member.


Let's take it to the spam thread, I mean, the "who should I listen to" thread.
#35
Ask for help from your teacher
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