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#1
firstly, this isnt a thread asking for what amp i should get.

why are there so few hi gain, low wattage, 1- 10watt, tube amps?
for metal you want to crank the amp and drive the tubes as much as possible, so why are the amps so high wattage that you would shake walls down just to get that tone?
why should we have to buy an overdrive pedal to go with a mid gain amp, whereas clean/blues players don't have to spend as much money to get decent tone - the lowest watt, hi gain amp i can find is 20 watts - $400! whereas blues etc players have a huge selection under that range.

i suppose its a bit of a rant but don't companies think of making hi-gain practice amps?

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#2
Last time I checked, it's not really POSSIBLE to get high gain sounds with so few watts. And when that does happen, the amps are designed especially for that purpose, making them more expensive. That's just not the way things work. You'll get some gain out of a small tube amp, but for heavy high-gain stuff, even an OD pedal on top will only get you mediocre heavy tones.
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#3
Because they'd make more money selling OMFG SUPER BLACK METAL SS halfstacks made of cardboard. And they do.
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#4
Quote by Sid McCall
Last time I checked, it's not really POSSIBLE to get high gain sounds with so few watts. And when that does happen, the amps are designed especially for that purpose, making them more expensive. That's just not the way things work. You'll get some gain out of a small tube amp, but for heavy high-gain stuff, even an OD pedal on top will only get you mediocre heavy tones.

what he said.
#5
I wouldn't be surprised if it's a marketing thing. Someone in sales probably pitched the idea that very few people would put out major bucks for an amp with less than 10 watts. You really can't make a low power tube amp much cheaper than a medium power one as they still need the same expensive components. Of course there are boutique amps available but who wants to pay >$2K for a dinky little practise or recording amp.
Moving on.....
#6
Quote by timi_hendrix
Because they'd make more money selling OMFG SUPER BLACK METAL SS halfstacks made of cardboard. And they do.

What HE said.
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#8
because for metal tones, you want a lot of Preamp gain, not power tube saturation. so you need a higher watt amp for headroom, and crank your preamp. power tube OD usually is too loose for modern metal.
also the bigger the output transformer, the tighter the bass response is.
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#9
Quote by chea_man
because for metal tones, you want a lot of Preamp gain, not power tube saturation. so you need a higher watt amp for headroom, and crank your preamp. power tube OD usually is too loose for modern metal.
also the bigger the output transformer, the tighter the bass response is.

+1
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#10
Quote by metallicafan616
for metal you want to crank the amp and drive the tubes as much as possible, so why are the amps so high wattage that you would shake walls down just to get that tone?

No you don't.

Metal amps are all preamp gain for the most part. Most people wouldn't want power tube saturation because it creates a sag, making your sound less defined and muddier, for people who play classic rock, this is a desired tone because it makes the amp sound more warm for lead tones. Metal amps are designed with high wattage to counter act this and give you more head room.
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#11
I think there are enough if you are willing to spend the money, but then you might as well get a higher wattage amp.
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#12
Quote by MatrixClaw
No you don't.

Metal amps are all preamp gain for the most part. Most people wouldn't want power tube saturation because it creates a sag, making your sound less defined and muddier, for people who play classic rock, this is a desired tone because it makes the amp sound more warm for lead tones. Metal amps are designed with high wattage to counter act this and give you more head room.



well, i learn something new everyday, i was under the impression that powertube saturation was preffered for metal - thanks for clearing that up then

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#13
The only advantage I can think of for having a high-gain low-wattage amp is for recording purposes in a volume sensitive environment.
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#14
or shortage of money ^^

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#15
True, but if you're short on money, it's always best to just keep saving until you can afford what you really want.
AMP:
5150 combo
GSP1101 + Tech 21 PE60

GUITARS:
ESP LTD M-255 w/ SD Full Shred
Kramer Vanguard w/ JE-1000 active preamp
Douglas WF-150sn w/ GFS "Hot Lead" set

EFFECTS:
Bos SD-1 (boost)
AMT DT-2

My Youtube Vids http://youtube.com/user/mogar
#16
the only really good high gain low wattage amp ive seen/heard was the:
Surh Badger 18 and 30 awesome cleans and amazing overdrive but the thing is it is pretty low wattage but after paying for it your gonna be low wattage in the wallet its like 3 grand:S
#17
Quote by chea_man
because for metal tones, you want a lot of Preamp gain, not power tube saturation. so you need a higher watt amp for headroom, and crank your preamp. power tube OD usually is too loose for modern metal.
also the bigger the output transformer, the tighter the bass response is.


+1

Another genuine issue is that most metal player are looking for a loud amp! The ZVex Nano gets pretty good high gain sounds, but not a lot of bottom end (an essential ingredient for metal).

If someone thinks they can make money off the concept, I'm sure you'll see it. I guess that's the market that Peavey's going after with the mini-JSX. Seems to me that a company could make a 15-20W amp with a pair of EL84's or 6V6's (I can't imagine such an amp being class A) with multiple gain stages that would do a decent job. Mesa made the Subway series, which while not metal produces a pretty good higher gain sound. As mentioned, there's some boutique stuff out there, too.

It's an expensive venture. Traynor's YCV 20 is a great amp from a company that generally puts out reasonably priced products, but as the only two channel amp in it's class, it's pretty pricey (but worth it, IMHO). Same issue, you're not going to get high gain without paying for it, and you'll probably want a clean channel in there, too.
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#18
I have no idea how this is relevant to the thread, but whatever.

Don't low wattage amps have to use tubes that run at that wattage?

So, an EL34 or 6l6 are able to run at a higher wattage (more of them, the higher it can be), and so if used in a really low wattage amp, do not operate as well (not running at best performance?). Correct, or I am really wrong here?

For example, there's that Mesa series that operates at two different wattage values depending on what you set the amp (like a tiny terror). One version of this amp operates at 50W or 25W and uses 6l6 (can run at 25 or 50), but the other version operates at 25W and 15W uses EL84 (as found in low wattage amps) because the EL84 is able operate at a lower wattage (15 + 25).

Am I right, or really misinformed?
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#19
Quote by Simsimius
Am I right, or really misinformed?


Both.

Mesa's Express series run at 5 or 25W on EL84's, or 5 and 50W on 6L6's.

In general, EL34's and 6L6's are for higher power applications, and EL84's and 6V6's are for lower applications. Orange turns that on it's head by running their Rocker 30 on a pair of EL34's, and it's Rockerverb 50 on four 6V6's.

So, yeah.
You Don't Need a halfstack.

You Don't Need 100W.

Quote by jj1565
i love you slats.
#20
Quote by slatsmania
Both.

Mesa's Express series run at 5 or 25W on EL84's, or 5 and 50W on 6L6's.

In general, EL34's and 6L6's are for higher power applications, and EL84's and 6V6's are for lower applications. Orange turns that on it's head by running their Rocker 30 on a pair of EL34's, and it's Rockerverb 50 on four 6V6's.

So, yeah.



Ah ok. Thanks. I knew I got the Mesa info wrong somehow!

So I was nearly right, but still wrong (as orange goes to show).

Thanks for clearing that up.
Sunn O))):
Quote by Doppelgänger
You could always just sleep beside your refrigerator.

Guitar:
- Ibanez S670FM w/ JB
- Fender 'Lite Ash' Stratocaster
- Fender '72 Deluxe Telecaster
- Arbiter LP Jr. Doublecut
Amp:
- Laney VC15

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RIP DIO
#21
Quote by timi_hendrix
Because they'd make more money selling OMFG SUPER BLACK METAL SS halfstacks made of cardboard. And they do.


+1


Quote by chea_man
because for metal tones, you want a lot of Preamp gain, not power tube saturation. so you need a higher watt amp for headroom, and crank your preamp. power tube OD usually is too loose for modern metal.
also the bigger the output transformer, the tighter the bass response is.


+1
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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#22
You also have the problem that high-gain preamps can potentially put out a lot of power as compared to a clean Fender preamp for example, so with a small 2w or 5w amp this larger power can overwhelm the small output tube and clip it fairly quickly. I'd like to try building a nice 1w amp with a JCM800 pre at some point to see how it turns out.
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#23
Quote by tenaciousjp
the only really good high gain low wattage amp ive seen/heard was the:
Surh Badger 18 and 30 awesome cleans and amazing overdrive but the thing is it is pretty low wattage but after paying for it your gonna be low wattage in the wallet its like 3 grand:S



Those are high gain? I guess I'll have to try one out now.
#24
Tiny Terror, OD Pedal, lowest price you can get a GOOD tube metal tone.
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#25
hm.. while not a low wattage amp at heart.. the traynor YCS 50 is switchable to 15 watts and has plenty of gain for whatever you may do.

although the switch to 15 watts i believe is class A, either way it was a bit mushy sounding. especially with a 7 string.
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Last edited by Kivarenn82 at Jul 6, 2008,
#26
Quote by chea_man
because for metal tones, you want a lot of Preamp gain, not power tube saturation. so you need a higher watt amp for headroom, and crank your preamp. power tube OD usually is too loose for modern metal.
also the bigger the output transformer, the tighter the bass response is.


I feel dirty for even raising this question. I don't play metal, I like rock and blues and basically want overdrive that sounds like Malcolm Young, I like cranking the master and mushing up the sound, so as you can imagine I'm not really up on how to get the perfect metal sound.

Is an all tube amp really nessesary if it's all about preamp tube breakup and heaps of headroom from the power section? Do you need the added expense and complication of pre-amp tubes that never get driven anyway?

I suppose I'm asking why metal players don't just go with Hybrids if they just want to drive one side of the amp? I'm going to wash my mouth out now.
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E|-------------------------------------------1--
B|-----------------------------------1--4--
G|-------------------------1-3-4--
D|------------------1-3----
A|--------1-2-3----
E|-1-4-----

Just move it around the fretboard
#27
krank rev jr anyone?
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#28
No one has said Krank Rev Jr yet. That's pretty much the only low wattage amp that doesn't need an OD for metal. Still loud as hell though.
Quote by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





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#29
Quote by Cosimo_Zaretti
I feel dirty for even raising this question. I don't play metal, I like rock and blues and basically want overdrive that sounds like Malcolm Young, I like cranking the master and mushing up the sound, so as you can imagine I'm not really up on how to get the perfect metal sound.

Is an all tube amp really nessesary if it's all about preamp tube breakup and heaps of headroom from the power section? Do you need the added expense and complication of pre-amp tubes that never get driven anyway?

I suppose I'm asking why metal players don't just go with Hybrids if they just want to drive one side of the amp? I'm going to wash my mouth out now.


you still get colouring and tone from the power tubes and it sounds a lot better than any solid state i've tried.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#30
Quote by Dave_Mc
you still get colouring and tone from the power tubes and it sounds a lot better than any solid state i've tried.

+about76thousand

That's a pretty obvious one if you ask me :]
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#31
not to mention it feels like a tube amp, you still have the dynamics (though granted it won't feel exactly like a vintage tube amp, they tend to be a lot tighter).
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#32
Quote by Cosimo_Zaretti
I feel dirty for even raising this question. I don't play metal, I like rock and blues and basically want overdrive that sounds like Malcolm Young, I like cranking the master and mushing up the sound, so as you can imagine I'm not really up on how to get the perfect metal sound.

Is an all tube amp really nessesary if it's all about preamp tube breakup and heaps of headroom from the power section? Do you need the added expense and complication of pre-amp tubes that never get driven anyway?

I suppose I'm asking why metal players don't just go with Hybrids if they just want to drive one side of the amp? I'm going to wash my mouth out now.
As I was discussing with Timi yesterday, whoever started the 'metal is all preamp' nonsense IS A FUCKING TOOL.

Because it's just crap.

The power section still makes a huge difference, turn your gain up to max and the master down to 0 and it will sound bad, that's a fact. Turn it up a huge amount and the power tubes will add their own dynamics to your sound, even when they start to distort that's a pleasant effect even for metal, of course unless you like the sound of dynamic-less fizz which is what you get with no volume. Volume makes a huge difference, headroom makes a huge difference, everything contributes to tone, and I feel people keep taking the 'easy way out' in explaining things to the unknowing and then the information is relentlessly regurgitated by a bunch of idiot parrots on here.

Also while i'm in a ranting mood, I hate the description 'tight' It seems to be used in so many different contexts.
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#33
Quote by MrCarrot
As I was discussing with Timi yesterday, whoever started the 'metal is all preamp' nonsense IS A FUCKING TOOL.

Because it's just crap.

The power section still makes a huge difference, turn your gain up to max and the master down to 0 and it will sound bad, that's a fact. Turn it up a huge amount and the power tubes will add their own dynamics to your sound, even when they start to distort that's a pleasant effect even for metal, of course unless you like the sound of dynamic-less fizz which is what you get with no volume. Volume makes a huge difference, headroom makes a huge difference, everything contributes to tone, and I feel people keep taking the 'easy way out' in explaining things to the unknowing and then the information is relentlessly regurgitated by a bunch of idiot parrots on here.

Also while i'm in a ranting mood, I hate the description 'tight' It seems to be used in so many different contexts.


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#34
i agree. i don't think it's ALL in the preamp for metal... however, it's MORE in the preamp than, say, blues.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#35
Quote by sirlimecat
krank rev jr anyone?


$600 tho - and thats what im saving up for after ive bought my guitar

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#36
You can't deny that a lot of power tube break up is bad for metal though. I typically keep the master at half on my f-30 for classic rock, but it's too mushy for metal so I have to turn it down a bit to play metal. Great thing about an attenuator is I can set the master for best tone instead of volume control.
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#37
Quote by Kevin Saale
You can't deny that a lot of power tube break up is bad for metal though. I typically keep the master at half on my f-30 for classic rock, but it's too mushy for metal so I have to turn it down a bit to play metal. Great thing about an attenuator is I can set the master for best tone instead of volume control.

Which is maybe why the "metal" amps are [most] all 100w+?
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#38
Quote by MrCarrot


The power section still makes a huge difference, turn your gain up to max and the master down to 0 and it will sound bad,


Don't want to sound like a smartass, but you'll get no sound at all. Sorry, couldn't resist.

unless you like the sound of dynamic-less fizz which is what you get with no volume. Volume makes a huge difference, headroom makes a huge difference, everything contributes to tone.


The reason I raise the question is that I used to spend a lot of time around the underground metal scene, and going out friday and saturday night I'd see half a dozen metal bands a week easily. Most seemed to be pretty fond of sterile fizz.

Also while i'm in a ranting mood, I hate the description 'tight' It seems to be used in so many different contexts.


oooh, the restraint that required. No I'll let it go through to the keeper.
Quote by The devil at the crossroads
E|-------------------------------------------1--
B|-----------------------------------1--4--
G|-------------------------1-3-4--
D|------------------1-3----
A|--------1-2-3----
E|-1-4-----

Just move it around the fretboard
#39
Quote by Cosimo_Zaretti
Don't want to sound like a smartass, but you'll get no sound at all. Sorry, couldn't resist.


The reason I raise the question is that I used to spend a lot of time around the underground metal scene, and going out friday and saturday night I'd see half a dozen metal bands a week easily. Most seemed to be pretty fond of sterile fizz.


oooh, the restraint that required. No I'll let it go through to the keeper.

With the master at 0 I get a faint fizzy sound, so you're WRONG!

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#40
Quote by Kevin Saale
You can't deny that a lot of power tube break up is bad for metal though. I typically keep the master at half on my f-30 for classic rock, but it's too mushy for metal so I have to turn it down a bit to play metal. Great thing about an attenuator is I can set the master for best tone instead of volume control.


A lot of power tube breakup is bad, obviously, but saying metal tone is entirely in the preamp is a load of tosh.
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