#1
ive noticd while searching for amps that some amps have solid state or tube rectifier

what is the difference between the two and in general wtf is a rectifier exactly?

07 Fender American Deluxe Strat
07 Fender Custom Telecaster
09 Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster
09 Fulltone OCD V.4
10 Ibanez WH-10 V.2
09 Splawn SuperStock
10 Jet City JCA-20
97 Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Yeh the SICK! bit sounds a bit stupid.

#2
Quote by timzee117
ive noticd while searching for amps that some amps have solid state or tube rectifier

what is the difference between the two and in general wtf is a rectifier exactly?


Ever heard of wikipedia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

In general, a SS rectifier is normally a better option, as its reliable, etc.
Sunn O))):
Quote by Doppelgänger
You could always just sleep beside your refrigerator.

Guitar:
- Ibanez S670FM w/ JB
- Fender 'Lite Ash' Stratocaster
- Fender '72 Deluxe Telecaster
- Arbiter LP Jr. Doublecut
Amp:
- Laney VC15

'72 Tele Appreciation Group
RIP DIO
#3
okay that answers part of it. but whats the difference betwen the two in terms of which one is better

07 Fender American Deluxe Strat
07 Fender Custom Telecaster
09 Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster
09 Fulltone OCD V.4
10 Ibanez WH-10 V.2
09 Splawn SuperStock
10 Jet City JCA-20
97 Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Yeh the SICK! bit sounds a bit stupid.

#4
Quote by timzee117
okay that answers part of it. but whats the difference betwen the two in terms of which one is better


I'm no expert, but most modern amps use SS, as it's cheaper (no need to buy new tubes for the rectifier), reliable, and I believe (but can be wrong) that there is little sound difference.
Sunn O))):
Quote by Doppelgänger
You could always just sleep beside your refrigerator.

Guitar:
- Ibanez S670FM w/ JB
- Fender 'Lite Ash' Stratocaster
- Fender '72 Deluxe Telecaster
- Arbiter LP Jr. Doublecut
Amp:
- Laney VC15

'72 Tele Appreciation Group
RIP DIO
#5
the higher end amps still use tube recs in some cases. so i wouldnt be so quick as to say the SS are better. but i cant offer any info on the differences, ive been kind of wondering that myself....
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#7
Quote by Y0UNGBL00D
the higher end amps still use tube recs in some cases. so i wouldnt be so quick as to say the SS are better. but i cant offer any info on the differences, ive been kind of wondering that myself....


The VOX AC30 used rectifiers.
Sunn O))):
Quote by Doppelgänger
You could always just sleep beside your refrigerator.

Guitar:
- Ibanez S670FM w/ JB
- Fender 'Lite Ash' Stratocaster
- Fender '72 Deluxe Telecaster
- Arbiter LP Jr. Doublecut
Amp:
- Laney VC15

'72 Tele Appreciation Group
RIP DIO
#8
A rectifier is what changes AC into DC

Tube rectifiers have an internal resistance that goes up as you try and draw more power. This means if you play a not really loud and hard it draws more current than the rectifier tube and produce which makes the amps volume go down slightly before the current gets high enough. This is a type of tube compression is refered to as "sag" and thats what gives you the spongy blues tone that tweed amps were so famouse for.

Solid stat rectifiers don't have an internal resistance and don't sag when you hit a loud note. These give you more attack on the front end of your note, better note definition, and more bite.
Not taking any online orders.
#9
corduroy said what i forgot to earlier, and hit it on the nose. its all preference in feel. most metal-type amps are going for more attack, less sag, whereas a bluesy setup prefers that sag.
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#10
Yeah, I can imagine a tube rectifier would better suit any type of music that isn't extreme and pure, that is to say a Jazzer or metaller would prefer SS, wheras a county player, Bluesman, Rocker would likely prefer Tube.
The Laney Thread are big and clever. No exceptions.
#11
Quote by CorduroyEW
A rectifier is what changes AC into DC

Tube rectifiers have an internal resistance that goes up as you try and draw more power. This means if you play a not really loud and hard it draws more current than the rectifier tube and produce which makes the amps volume go down slightly before the current gets high enough. This is a type of tube compression is refered to as "sag" and thats what gives you the spongy blues tone that tweed amps were so famouse for.

Solid stat rectifiers don't have an internal resistance and don't sag when you hit a loud note. These give you more attack on the front end of your note, better note definition, and more bite.


+1

generally speaking, you want a tube rectifier for more vintage tones, and solid state for more modern.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#12
but, interstingly enough, a SS rec would suit country a little bit better. those guys dig a snappy twang.
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#13
that's a possibility, yeah.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#14
Quote by Y0UNGBL00D
but, interstingly enough, a SS rec would suit country a little bit better. those guys dig a snappy twang.
I'd rather the tube, it gives a nice response and a more vintage tonality, and seeing as the most stereotypical country amps are tweed fenders, tubes would probably be a key part of the tone and therefore a tube rec would give a tone more accurate to old country guys. Plus the effect is less extreme on clean tones as opposed to heavily driven sounds.
The Laney Thread are big and clever. No exceptions.
#15
A few comments and clarifications...

A rectifier doesn't directly convert AC into DC. It's a one-way valve for electricity. Current can flow through it in one direction but not the other. If you feed a sine wave through a rectifier (like the AC power coming from the wall outlet) what will come out is only either the positive or negative half cycles of the sine wave, depending on which way the rectifier is biased. During the other half cycle they put out zero volts. This means you get a series of rounded pulses out of it. In order to turn this into a DC voltage you need capacitors to smooth out those bumps. That's what those massive electrolytic caps in the power supply are supposed to do.

All rectifiers, whether solid state or tube, will "drop" some voltage when they are conducting. Solid state rectifiers drop a constant voltage which varies between less than a volt to several volts, depending on the rectifier. What's important to realize is that the voltage drop across a solid state rectifier is CONSTANT, regardless of how much current is going through it.

Tube rectifiers drop a LOT more voltage than a solid state rectifier - 70 volts or more is typical. In addition, that voltage drop increases with the amount of current flowing through the tube.

Now, you can design an amp to use solid state rectifiers. However, simply replacing a tube rectifier with a solid state rectifier in an amp that was designed for a tube rectifier is asking for problems. The voltage coming out of the solid state rectifier is going to be several dozen volts higher than the voltage that was coming out of the tube rectifier. Also, the solid state rectifier won't "sag", as previously mentioned, which can affect that warm natural compression you get from a tube amp at full volume.

Engineers take this stuff into account when they design solid state replacements for tube rectifiers. They generally add a power resistor in series with the rectifier component. The power resistor drops the additional voltage that the tube rectifier would have dropped, and the voltage drop across the resistor WILL increase as the current through the rectifier increases.

Ok, the actual voltage drop curve is not identical to the curve of the tube rectifier, but it's a reasonable approximation that gives pretty good results in most cases. As previously mentioned, solid state rectifiers are more reliable than tubes.

Some amps, like the Vox AC30, eat tube rectifiers for breakfast.
#16
Quote by amp_surgeon
A few comments and clarifications...

A rectifier doesn't directly convert AC into DC. It's a one-way valve for electricity. Current can flow through it in one direction but not the other. If you feed a sine wave through a rectifier (like the AC power coming from the wall outlet) what will come out is only either the positive or negative half cycles of the sine wave, depending on which way the rectifier is biased. During the other half cycle they put out zero volts. This means you get a series of rounded pulses out of it. In order to turn this into a DC voltage you need capacitors to smooth out those bumps. That's what those massive electrolytic caps in the power supply are supposed to do.

All rectifiers, whether solid state or tube, will "drop" some voltage when they are conducting. Solid state rectifiers drop a constant voltage which varies between less than a volt to several volts, depending on the rectifier. What's important to realize is that the voltage drop across a solid state rectifier is CONSTANT, regardless of how much current is going through it.

Tube rectifiers drop a LOT more voltage than a solid state rectifier - 70 volts or more is typical. In addition, that voltage drop increases with the amount of current flowing through the tube.

Now, you can design an amp to use solid state rectifiers. However, simply replacing a tube rectifier with a solid state rectifier in an amp that was designed for a tube rectifier is asking for problems. The voltage coming out of the solid state rectifier is going to be several dozen volts higher than the voltage that was coming out of the tube rectifier. Also, the solid state rectifier won't "sag", as previously mentioned, which can affect that warm natural compression you get from a tube amp at full volume.

Engineers take this stuff into account when they design solid state replacements for tube rectifiers. They generally add a power resistor in series with the rectifier component. The power resistor drops the additional voltage that the tube rectifier would have dropped, and the voltage drop across the resistor WILL increase as the current through the rectifier increases.

Ok, the actual voltage drop curve is not identical to the curve of the tube rectifier, but it's a reasonable approximation that gives pretty good results in most cases. As previously mentioned, solid state rectifiers are more reliable than tubes.

Some amps, like the Vox AC30, eat tube rectifiers for breakfast.



This man is a genius. Listen to him.
Quote by thrilla13w
The hotbar should be floating parallel to the principle axis at this point. Next, take a hammer, and beat yourself in the face while crying JIHAD. problem fixed.

Quote by Slaytanic1993
cowdude speaks words of infinite wisdomery.
#17
yeah, nice post there. i can't corroborate all of that, because i don't know enough () but certainly that first paragraph is all good stuff, and i would assume the rest is too.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#18
As a "freak", the Dual Rectifier (and Triple too I think) can be set to use either a solid state or a tube rectifier. Don't know if the Roadking/Roadster can do it too, but I guess they can?
Quote by Lunchbox362
This thread if fail in almost every way imaniganable.
#19
You took the words outta my mouth. Good Post
Endorsed by Dean Guitars 07-10
2003 Gibson Flying V w/ Moon Inlay
2006 Fender All-American Partscaster
SVK ELP-C500 Custom

1964 Fender Vibro Champ
1989 Peavey VTM60

[thread="1166208"]Gibsons Historic Designs[/thread]
#21
Quote by Fama
As a "freak", the Dual Rectifier (and Triple too I think) can be set to use either a solid state or a tube rectifier. Don't know if the Roadking/Roadster can do it too, but I guess they can?


i think so, but i could be wrong.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#22
i've been reading dave hunter's book a lot recently (i'm on a ship, and confined to quarters due to injury, so im reading up) and it corroborated all of the amp surgeons remarks. basically, it all comes down to amp design again. SS recs have been used as early as the sixties, and the sag really doesnt become an issue until high gain settings, so it all comes down to whether or not the amp can reliably employ a tube rec over and over again for many years. as the surgeon professed, teh AC30s are known for the exact opposite.

also, nothing really to do with the topic but neat info anyway, but the reason standby switches are in amps is so the the massive DC voltage doesnt hit the tube until the cathode is properly heated, preventing damage to those oh so precious power tubes. in smaller tube amps with tube recs, since the rec is responsible for that DC voltage, it has to wait to warm as well, allowing the DC voltage to flow gradually in, eliminating the need for a standby switch.
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#23
Quote by Y0UNGBL00D
i've been reading dave hunter's book a lot recently (i'm on a ship, and confined to quarters due to injury, so im reading up) and it corroborated all of the amp surgeons remarks. basically, it all comes down to amp design again. SS recs have been used as early as the sixties, and the sag really doesnt become an issue until high gain settings, so it all comes down to whether or not the amp can reliably employ a tube rec over and over again for many years. as the surgeon professed, teh AC30s are known for the exact opposite.

also, nothing really to do with the topic but neat info anyway, but the reason standby switches are in amps is so the the massive DC voltage doesnt hit the tube until the cathode is properly heated, preventing damage to those oh so precious power tubes. in smaller tube amps with tube recs, since the rec is responsible for that DC voltage, it has to wait to warm as well, allowing the DC voltage to flow gradually in, eliminating the need for a standby switch.


Oooh, yes! An excellent point! Thanks for bringing that up!

You shouldn't install a SS replacement rectifier in an amp designed for a tube rectifier unless it's got a standby switch. Otherwise, be prepared to add a standby switch to your amp.

A solid state rectifier, with appropriate filter caps, will deliver DC almost immediately when you switch on the amp. If the power tube cathodes haven't warmed up yet then the high positive plate voltage will actually pull particles of the coating off of the cathode, rather than pulling electrons from it. In the most dramatic case, you'll see flashover arcing inside the power tubes. Needless to say, this is VERY BAD for the power tubes.

When powering up an amp with a solid state rectifier always flip the main power switch first, wait for it to warm up, then flip the standby switch.
#24
There's plenty of amps with SS recs, no standby switch and no inrush current limiter, and I've never heard of internal arcing in that instance.
The Laney Thread are big and clever. No exceptions.
#25
well in the smaller amps, sometimes its not neccessary. but certainly on your amps with the bigger power tubes, and yes, arcing is the most dramatic exmaple, damage WILL occur to the power tubes in the form of what surgeon said about pulling the coating off of the cathode element, placing MUCH more wear and tear on your tubes, causing them to fault quicker.
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#26
Quote by MrCarrot
There's plenty of amps with SS recs, no standby switch and no inrush current limiter, and I've never heard of internal arcing in that instance.


Yep, that's true. Most of those amps are fairly low wattage, and the B+ to the plates of the power tubes is nowhere near the maximum rating for the tubes, so there's not much risk of damaging the tubes.

On the other hand, amps designed for solid state rectifiers, and which have B+ voltages that approach the limits for the power tubes, will usually have a standby switch, and the manufacturer will usually recommend that you use it.

For example, the following is a quote from the Fender Hot Rod DeVille manual:


Use STANDBY for 30 seconds when first switching the power on. Using standby will extend the lifespan of your amplifier tubes.


The Hot Rod DeVille has a full-wave bridge solid state rectifier circuit, which provides a B+ of 480V to the plates of the two 6L6GC power tubes. The maximum plate voltage for the 6L6GC (in pentode configuration) is 500V.

I've personally watched the power tubes in an AC30 light up like a Christmas tree with a new solid state replacement rectifier, and (accidentally) having standby set to "on" when throwing the power switch. It's was a beautiful - an expensive - show!
#27
Quote by Y0UNGBL00D
i've been reading dave hunter's book a lot recently


i've read that book too, it's been a while though.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#28
Quote by Y0UNGBL00D
also, nothing really to do with the topic but neat info anyway, but the reason standby switches are in amps is so the the massive DC voltage doesnt hit the tube until the cathode is properly heated, preventing damage to those oh so precious power tubes. in smaller tube amps with tube recs, since the rec is responsible for that DC voltage, it has to wait to warm as well, allowing the DC voltage to flow gradually in, eliminating the need for a standby switch.


yeah.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#29
Quote by Dave_Mc
i think so, but i could be wrong.

Yes, this is true.
The Single Rectifier only has a SS rectifier.
Member of UG Gain whores.
PM Gpderek09 to join!
#30
I hate to hijack this thread with a noob question, but here goes:
what's the sound difference between an amp with a rectifier, and an amp without one?
EDIT: jsut checked the all info about amps thread, and found that they all have rectifiers, I feel stupid now.
Fender Standard American Stratocaster
Boss DS-1
Budda Budwah
Electroharmonix Small Clone
Vox AD50VT
Last edited by deathbyawesome at Jul 7, 2008,
#31
Quote by deathbyawesome
I hate to hijack this thread with a noob question, but here goes:
what's the sound difference between an amp with a rectifier, and an amp without one?

I believe all tube amps have rectifiers.

Could be wrong though.
Member of UG Gain whores.
PM Gpderek09 to join!
#32
Quote by deathbyawesome
I hate to hijack this thread with a noob question, but here goes:
what's the sound difference between an amp with a rectifier, and an amp without one?

So you didn't bother reading the thread at all?

Every amp has a rectifier, I think. Not 100% sure if all SS amps have one, but I think they do.
Quote by Lunchbox362
This thread if fail in almost every way imaniganable.
#33
all. amps. have. rectifiers. period!
Gibson SG Standard + 18volt EMG-81 & 85
Mesa/Boogie Mark IV + Recto 2x12
Keeley Modded BD-2
Vox V847a
Quote by one vision
Bureaucrats gonna crat.

Recognised by the Official EG/GG&A Who To Listen To List 2008
#34
Quote by UnsignedRecords
all. amps. have. rectifiers. period!

thanks.
Member of UG Gain whores.
PM Gpderek09 to join!
#35
dave hunters book is really good. i want to get into building/designing a lot more. i want to get my hands on the entire bibliography at the end. anyone know how to really get started getting really in depth into tube amp repair/build/design? i already have a strong electronics background (high school basic course, navy tech core, 6 years navy tech experience)
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#37
I've noticed in my own experience that tube rectifier amps have a "spongier" or "springier" tone as opposed to an SS rectifier, which seems to give more of a tighter feel with a sharper attack.
Call me Wes.
Gear:
Fender American Deluxe HSS Strat
Chicago Blues Box Roadhouse
Bad Cat Cougar 5
1957 Gibson GA-5
Ceriatone 18w TMB Combo
Hughes & Kettner Tube Factor
Various Ibanez TS9s
Weber MASS Attenuator
#38
Quote by CorduroyEW
^gerald webers books are all 3 very good.


same guy from weber speakers? i have a micro mass for my VJ that i love
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery
#39
Quote by UnsignedRecords
all. amps. have. rectifiers. period!


This one doesn't!



Ok, just teasing. It runs on a 9V battery!

Yeah, all AC powered amps have rectifiers. There's no other practical way to convert AC to DC, and all amps need DC to operate.
#40
nice call. ive been meaning to try one by the way
SG
Thunderverb 50
Foot Computers
Beer and snacks
Scenery