#1
A A# C D D# F G


I think it's closest to G melodic minor [desc.].

There are some strong resemblances to D minor pentatonics, if we take the A#, and D# as passing tones.
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Last edited by sTx at Jul 10, 2008,
#2
Ascending...seems like A locrian/phrygian.
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#9
Phrygian b5?
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#10
that should be a bB and would make it in the key of F. A is the third of F. and the third mode is phrygian. So its A Phyrigian i think. im probably wrong idk.
#12
Nobody said it has a flat 5... I think he put the D in there twice on accident, it's probably supposed to be an E. A Bb C D E F G is A phrygian.
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#13
Quote by sTx
A A# C D D F G


I think it's closest to G melodic minor [desc.].

There are some strong resemblances to D minor pentatonics, if we take the A#, and D# as passing tones.

Is this from a song, or something you made up?
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#15
Sorry, sorry, that's a D#

FIXED

Is this from a song, or something you made up?


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Last edited by sTx at Jul 10, 2008,
#16
Quote by sTx
A A# C D D# F G


I think it's closest to G melodic minor [desc.].

There are some strong resemblances to D minor pentatonics, if we take the A#, and D# as passing tones.



Looks like a misspelled A locrian:

A Bb C D Eb F G
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#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
Looks like a misspelled A locrian:

A Bb C D Eb F G


If you want to go all diatonic, =P

A Locrian, meaning, if we modulate to Ionian, it'll be a * ionian?
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Last edited by sTx at Jul 10, 2008,
#18
Quote by sTx
If you want to go all diatonic, =P


well it is what it is. You're the one that went there, I just helped you realize it.

Quote by sTx

A Locrian, meaning, if we modulate to Ionian, it'll be a G?


well, where you modulate to is your business, but what you have written is A locrian.

btw the related Major (Ionian if you must) is Bb. The related minor is G.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2008,
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
well it is what it is. You're the one that went there, I just helped you realize it.


well, where you modulate to is your business, but what you have written is A locrian.


I just checked it on all-guitar-chords*com, it is A locrian/ G melodic minor desc. =D
Thanks all.

Last question, if the Locrian (7th mode, if I'm right) is A, the ionian is...G?
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#20
Quote by sTx
I just checked it on all-guitar-chords*com, it is A locrian/ G melodic minor desc. =D
Thanks all.

Last question, if the Locrian (7th mode, if I'm right) is A, the ionian is...G?


go the other way...... Bb Major (Ionian if you absolutely need to use a bigger word)

btw its just A locrian.

G melodic minor descending sounds really impressive, but a decending melodic minor scale is just the natural minor scale. Anyway G minor IS related.....so are 6 other scales. But again they are related, not the same scale.

What you have written is....A locrian. If you started on G, then you would have the standard G natural minor scale or if you must... the aeolian mode.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2008,
#21
This scale is used by Dream Theater in Home. This is an answer I've also been looking for, though curiously it's one of the ones I have a wall chart on.
#22
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#23
Quote by GuitarMunky
go the other way...... Bb Major (Ionian if you absolutely need to use a bigger word)

btw its just A locrian.

G melodic minor descending sounds really impressive, but a decending melodic minor scale is just the natural minor scale. Anyway G minor IS related.....so are 6 other scales. But again they are related, not the same scale.

What you have written is....A locrian. If you started on G, then you would have the standard G natural minor scale or if you must... the aeolian mode.


G is the note I start on. I just wrote it in alphabetical order.
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#24
Seriously, there's no reason to keep hashing this out. The key signature has two flats (though it is a bit confusing if you express that using sharps- there are some traditions here). That tells you the key. The note you start on tells you the mode. This is not that hard people.
#25
Quote by mezzopiano
Seriously, there's no reason to keep hashing this out. The key signature has two flats (though it is a bit confusing if you express that using sharps- there are some traditions here). That tells you the key. The note you start on tells you the mode. This is not that hard people.

Arguing over modes is one of the things MT does best.

The key signature doesn't necessarily have two flats, just for the record that scale could technically be written using sharps: Gx A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx. The tradition is that each letter is only used once, not that sharps or flats have to be used to represent the notes.

You also say that working out the mode isn't that hard. Your method assumes that the person has a full knowledge of key signatures and the order of the modes. It also assumes that what you're dealing with is a scale, if there are chords underneath the melody then the chords dictate the mode not the starting note. For example if I play that scale over a Bb Eb F progression I am in fact playing in Bb Ionian, even if I do start on is A. It is indeed harder than you make it out to be.

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#26
Quote by Taydr
The key signature doesn't necessarily have two flats, just for the record that scale could technically be written using sharps: Gx A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx. The tradition is that each letter is only used once, not that sharps or flats have to be used to represent the notes.
Just so you know, a key signature can only have a maximum of seven flats/sharps and no double flats/sharps.
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#27
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Just so you know, a key signature can only have a maximum of seven flats/sharps and no double flats/sharps.

Show me the bloody rules that say a key signature can't have double flats/sharps. And while your at it show me the rules that say I can't break the rules. There are some major scales that aren't possible without double flats/sharps, and I have seen examples of sheet music that have had double sharps in the key signature.

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#28
Quote by Taydr
Arguing over modes is one of the things MT does best.

The key signature doesn't necessarily have two flats, just for the record that scale could technically be written using sharps: Gx A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx. The tradition is that each letter is only used once, not that sharps or flats have to be used to represent the notes.



Don't be a moron. That key signature is _always_ written with two flats. I do understand diatonicism, btw. I also understand tradition.

Quote by Taydr
You also say that working out the mode isn't that hard. Your method assumes that the person has a full knowledge of key signatures and the order of the modes.


I do assume that. There's little point in arguing over it if they don't have that basis.

Quote by Taydr
It also assumes that what you're dealing with is a scale,


Please look at the title of the thread. We are discussing a scale. You are getting too cute by half at this point.

Quote by Taydr
if there are chords underneath the melody then the chords dictate the mode not the starting note. For example if I play that scale over a Bb Eb F progression I am in fact playing in Bb Ionian, even if I do start on is A.,


You might want to save that kind of lesson for people who need it. Cluestick: we don't say Ionian. In musician-land, we say major.

Quote by Taydr

It is indeed harder than you make it out to be.
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Nonsense- it's easier than I made it out to be. It's B flat major.

You're not the only guy who ever took composition courses. Should I point out to people that they aren't playing in F, but that they are playing in A flat flat flat flat flat? Not unless I want a sharp punch to the nose.
#29
Quote by mezzopiano
Don't be a moron. That key signature is _always_ written with two flats. I do understand diatonicism, btw. I also understand tradition.

I agree that Bb major is always written with two flats, however I was pointing out that the same thing can be accomplished without using flats at all, by using A# Major, which is enharmonically equivalent. Use your brain a little before calling me a moron, asshat.

I do assume that. There's little point in arguing over it if they don't have that basis.

Not everyone has that basis which is why I pointed it out.

Please look at the title of the thread. We are discussing a scale. You are getting too cute by half at this point.

Needless to say threads often evolve and the title may not always be the focus of a discussion. In this case I was simply pointing out that in the case of chords what you said was not true.

You might want to save that kind of lesson for people who need it.

And whats to say that someone reading this thread might not need that lesson? It's a lesson everyone has to learn at some point so I might as well teach it when appropriate.

Cluestick: we don't say Ionian. In musician-land, we say major.

In musician fucking land we know that there is a difference between major and fucking Ionian. Perhaps not in the intervals, but definitely in their application. So in real musician land we say both. In a modal discussion we say IONIAN not major.

Nonsense- it's easier than I made it out to be. It's B flat major.

Only if you know what your doing is it easy. As I pointed out earlier many people can not just identify the key signature by looking at the notes in the scale, so therefore can not determine the mode. And if you want to be real picky then I could well say that it's not Bb major because there is no Bb. Remember that many scales aren't diatonic, so therefore it could well be something else altogether.

You're not the only guy who ever took composition courses.

Good to hear it.

Should I point out to people that they aren't playing in F, but that they are playing in A flat flat flat flat flat? Not unless I want a sharp punch to the nose.

Why not? If it makes them think and it's correct then I see no reason not to. I've done it to many people while teaching them and I never received any violence back. As there were serious about learning music they listened, thought about it, and then asked questions, went away, and came back with all sorts of scales written, one of them starting on Cbbbbb. Very productive if you ask me.

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#30


Quote by Taydr
Arguing over modes is one of the things MT does best.


Making things seem overly complicated is another...
#31
A Bb C D Eb F G
1 b2 b3 5 b5 b6 b7

A Locrian, with a few degrees being non-diatonic enharmonics (correct me pro's?)

Partent scale Bb Ionian.
#32
Quote by Taydr
I agree that Bb major is always written with two flats, however I was pointing out that the same thing can be accomplished without using flats at all, by using A# Major, which is enharmonically equivalent. Use your brain a little before calling me a moron, asshat.


Some of us play transposing instruments (you flugelpenis) that are tuned to keys like E flat and B flat. It is tremendously confusing if you start talking about playing in the key of A sharp- we're already transposing from concert pitch, and the last thing we want to do is figure out what the hell you mean by A sharp. We just want to play the sheets. That's why there are those conventions- so peaople don't have to think about it while reading.

It's hard enough to get together with a lot of musicians you've never met before and read a piece well enough that it can be used in a commercial setting. That's why working musicians tend to not dick around with esoteric questions about enharmonics.
#33
Taydr, I wasn't trying to offend you
Quote by Taydr
There are some major scales that aren't possible without double flats/sharps
Yes, I didn't say otherwise. While it's possible to write them with double sharps/flats, it is usually much more practical in terms of reading and writing music to use enharmonic equivalents.

Major scales with double sharps/flats could be used within a piece when there is a modulation, eg from C# to the dominant key G#. In this case I would use the double sharp accidental for Fx instead of changing the key signature to Ab (depending on the length of time spent in the new key). This is more pragmatic as there is only one note affected instead of all seven.

Quote by Taydr
I have seen examples of sheet music that have had double sharps in the key signature.
I haven't, could you show me some?

I have only ever seen key signatures with up to seven sharps/flats, as in these links
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

Show me the bloody rules that say a key signature can't have double flats/sharps
While I can't show you a rule written in stone, I can show you my logic.
I think the reason I have never seen a key signature with double sharps/flats is because they are unnecessary. The same thing can be written much more simply with an enharmonic key signature. Key signatures are used to make reading and writing music easier, writing the key signature for Cbbbbb is needlessly complicated and confusing for both reading and writing music.

EDIT: Taydr, mezzopiano, we don't need name-calling and swearing in this forum. We're trying to keep the hostility out of MT at the moment, and it only detracts from the arguments you make.

reported
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Last edited by Ænimus Prime at Jul 11, 2008,
#34
Quote by mezzopiano
Some of us play transposing instruments (you flugelpenis) that are tuned to keys like E flat and B flat. It is tremendously confusing if you start talking about playing in the key of A sharp- we're already transposing from concert pitch, and the last thing we want to do is figure out what the hell you mean by A sharp. We just want to play the sheets. That's why there are those conventions- so peaople don't have to think about it while reading.

Don't talk to me about transposing instruments. I started out playing cornet, and for the past ten years have been playing transposing instruments. Amazingly enough everyone I currently play with on a regular basis knows what I mean by A sharp because hey guess what it appears on their sheets. Even with the conventions you HAVE to think while playing, otherwise how the hell do you know what you're doing?

It's hard enough to get together with a lot of musicians you've never met before and read a piece well enough that it can be used in a commercial setting. That's why working musicians tend to not dick around with esoteric questions about enharmonics.

Did you ever read the name of the forum? Musician Talk, where we discuss theory. Having discourses on theory involves asking questions, and quite often discussing things that you would otherwise never think about or discuss.

Quote by Ænimus Prime
Taydr, I wasn't trying to offend you

I wasn't offended as such, just in a bad mood.

Yes, I didn't say otherwise. While it's possible to write them with double sharps/flats, it is usually much more practical in terms of reading and writing music to use enharmonic equivalents.

I agree that it's easier to read and write without double sharps/flats, but sometimes the situation calls for them, which is why we have them.

Major scales with double sharps/flats could be used within a piece when there is a modulation, eg from C# to the dominant key G#. In this case I would use the double sharp accidental for Fx instead of changing the key signature to Ab (depending on the length of time spent in the new key). This is more pragmatic as there is only one note affected instead of all seven.

In this case using Ab would be incorrect anyway, because modulating to the dominant key requires going up a 5th not a bb6th. So not only is it easier to use Fx it's also correct.

I haven't, could you show me some?

Unfortunately I can't at the moment, as what I had were photocopies of very old pieces, belonging to an brass band I used to play with but haven't been a member of for four years now. If I do come across them again, or any others I'll be sure to put them up.

I have only ever seen key signatures with up to seven sharps/flats, as in these links
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

Most of the time key signatures don't contain double sharps/flats, so it's very unlikely to see them, especially on wiki and a site that seems to be based around teaching the basics of theory.

While I can't show you a rule written in stone, I can show you my logic.
I think the reason I have never seen a key signature with double sharps/flats is because they are unnecessary. The same thing can be written much more simply with an enharmonic key signature. Key signatures are used to make reading and writing music easier, writing the key signature for Cbbbbb is needlessly complicated and confusing for both reading and writing music.

Generally yes they are unnecessary, i agree. However they have their purpose, especially for theoretical discourses. They really are necessary however outside Equal tempered tuning as say a Fx sounds different to a G. However it's probably not best to go into that debate here.

EDIT: Taydr, mezzopiano, we don't need name-calling and swearing in this forum. We're trying to keep the hostility out of MT at the moment, and it only detracts from the arguments you make.

reported

Quite. My apologies.

~Taydr~
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#35
Quote by Taydr
In this case using Ab would be incorrect anyway, because modulating to the dominant key requires going up a 5th not a bb6th.
Yes, but I think allowances should be made for the sake of clarity and simplicity. Anyone analysing the piece could easily see that the new key is enharmonic to the dominant, while a performer wouldn't have to deal with the double sharp. This would be especially useful if it then modulated to something like the III key, B# (B# Cx Dx E# Fx Gx Ax). Which of course could be reinterpreted as C major.
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Quote by MudMartin
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#36
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#37
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Yes, but I think allowances should be made for the sake of clarity and simplicity. Anyone analysing the piece could easily see that the new key is enharmonic to the dominant, while a performer wouldn't have to deal with the double sharp. This would be especially useful if it then modulated to something like the III key, B# (B# Cx Dx E# Fx Gx Ax). Which of course could be reinterpreted as C major.

For the sake of performance using Equal Tempered Tuning then yes, allowances can be made. However for any other purpose there really isn't much room for allowances. Especially with Just Intonation G# and Ab are very different, which is why on this case G# is used. That way anyone who is playing using ETT can read it as Ab if they want, and any one using JI also knows exactly what note they're playing. Theoretical conventions exist for a reason.

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