Page 1 of 2
#1
So I'm putting together a band and have one singer with a great voice and no enthusiasm, and another with an okay voice but loads of enthusiasm for it.

Whats your experience with this?
Should I go for the enthusiastic but lesser talented person or the better singer?

Nick
#2
Idealy you want someone with enthusiasm and talent but if it's a choice between the two, go for enthusiasm. Talent can be learned, but a lazy sod is a lazy sod, no matter how much talent he has.
#3
But with singing.. i don't think tone can be learned...

maybe neither are right i suppose
#4
As long as the singer can sing, go for the lesser talented more enthusiastic guy. He'll push for gigs etc.

Also, make sure you like the person. If they have loads of enthusiasm, but are stuck up ponces, then you'll find it hard to work with them.
Quote by uvq
yeah fire him secretly... thats what im doing except im firing myself and secretly joining someone elses band

Quote by Jekkyl
If you get a virus by looking at porn, is it considered a sexually-transmitted disease?

Quote by DiveRightIn63
thanks for the compliment man!
#5
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Idealy you want someone with enthusiasm and talent but if it's a choice between the two, go for enthusiasm. Talent can be learned, but a lazy sod is a lazy sod, no matter how much talent he has.



+1

anyway on teh other hand.. we had a lazy bassist ... (he had not talent aswell)
and ofter the first show... he suddenly bacame talented and enthusiastic
Quote by Moggan13
Serjem is like a Bishops testicals: Swollen
ಠ_ಠ
IIIIfb * KARKOLI * ytIIII(mostly rock... a little funky, a little hard just the way you want it )
#6
Quote by alpine4ever
But with singing.. i don't think tone can be learned...

maybe neither are right i suppose

I learned it, I was a terrible singer when I started out, but with a bit of perseverance and the right guys showing me the ropes, I didn't turn out too bad.
Of course, you do get completely tone deaf people, but they don't tend to get involved with music in the first place, so they're kind of a mute point anyhow.
#7
you know what you SHOULD do? Tell both them they're in the band, practice with both of them seperately, and do your live shows with the enthusiastic guy, but record with the talented one, it's really a self solved problem in this senario...your welcome.
#8
Quote by fret-less
you know what you SHOULD do? Tell both them they're in the band, practice with both of them seperately, and do your live shows with the enthusiastic guy, but record with the talented one, it's really a self solved problem in this senario...your welcome.




I actualy know a guitarist who was so bad and out of key, after he had been recorded for a solo project I was running, I re-recorded his part myself (it was easier than getting him back in the studio) but I kept his credits on the album sleeve, the guy never even realised it wasn't him playing.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Jul 21, 2008,
#9
Hilarious!

Yes, if the person can do the job, or can at least learn to do the job (and yes, I'm another proof that singing can be learned from nothing), then I'd go with attitude over talent. After years of trying (and failing) to put together a band, I finally assembled the band I wanted once I focused on personality traits, musical goals, and musical taste over talent. It took me until I was over 30 for this to happen. Go figure.

My experience with using the most talented players I could find was drama and frustration on so many levels.

As it turns out, these guys I'm with now are *also* very talented musicians who were looking for someone with my newly-found attitude.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#11
In the realm of singing, confidence is more important that "having a good voice" IMO. So your real issue should be: enthusiasm v. confidence as a singer. If the enthusiasm carried by the less talented singer turns itself into confidence on stage, then you have just had a totally win-win situation.
#12
Quote by dullsilver_mike
In the realm of singing, confidence is more important that "having a good voice" IMO. So your real issue should be: enthusiasm v. confidence as a singer. If the enthusiasm carried by the less talented singer turns itself into confidence on stage, then you have just had a totally win-win situation.


No.

Confidence with horrible singing is way worse than an great voice and poor confidence.
#13
Quote by fhvnjb07
No.

Confidence with horrible singing is way worse than an great voice and poor confidence.


I disagree. I don't really think there is such a thing as a horrible singer if that singer has confidence (and is, granted, not an impressionable 13 year old). It really does make a hell of a lot of difference.
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt.
He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.


Remember: A prudent question is one half of wisdom.

Click.
#14
i think you should go with the more talented singer, as long as you get along good enough to work together. you could help him/her work on confidence and stage presence during practices, just bring up the point that the singer is usually the face of the band and let him know his responsibility as an entertainer is not only sing but entertain. saying this doesnt mean he has to jump around like crazy, break **** or do back flips or w/e im not really into all of overzealous stage tricks.
#15
You cant teach enthusiasm. More than likely if the dude isn't feeling it, he will eventually leave the band.
#17
Quote by Resiliance
I disagree. I don't really think there is such a thing as a horrible singer if that singer has confidence (and is, granted, not an impressionable 13 year old). It really does make a hell of a lot of difference.

+1 Example: Stephen Malkmus and Lou Reed. They couldn't sing to save their lives, but they have enough confidence that they pull it off nicely. Although it does help that they're both amazing songwriters.
#18
IMO enthusiasm owns. A singer has to get the crowd going and be an enthusiastic showman, for example the singer in my band is a maniac, he dictates to the crowd and during songs he head locks me and screams right in my face and you know what THE CROWD ****ING LOVE IT. That said vocal talent is needed and since this guy has some as well as plenty of enthusiasm hire him and ultimately you'll have more FUN.
#20
Quote by SlackerBabbath
If it was just about the voice, the world would be full of opera singers.


+1

However, before you pick Mr. Enthusiasm, be sure he can carry stay on pitch enough to keep you from getting booed off stage.
Mr. Allan wrote:
This is like saying you're not allowed to jerk off over the girl next door unless you have a license and written permission from her. Which, of course, is bullsh*t
#21
well heres the thing.. is the enthusiastic guy good enough to hold himself up onstage? cuz even if he is enthusiastic and confident, one bad gig can ruin that.

good example:
yesterday i played a gig with a band i just joined, and im a guitarist/vocalist. so i did the first song, and it went ok (other guitarist snapped a string haha). now heres where it gets ugly.. we had organized to have the other guitarist to sing the second song, and we both play it (but now he had 5 strings so he just sang). so he starts singing and he is really nervous and his voice starts shaking a little bit. he isn't a bad singer just the shaking made it sound like he had a constant vibrato so it sounded a little off. anyway, we get offstage and a girl comes up and says to him "please don't sing again" this really cut through his confidence, and he closed up for the rest of the day. i dont think im gonna be able to get him to sing in front of an audience for a while.

so basicly the point of the story is that if your singer screws up bad enough, it's gonna kill him. so make sure he can do a good job before you guys do a show.
Who decided that pie would be sold on Tuesday but not Wednesday?
#22
yeah but a audience member shouldnt be so horrible.

i would have just slapped her across the face and told her to go listen panic at the manpile.
#23
Quote by Dunjma
well heres the thing.. is the enthusiastic guy good enough to hold himself up onstage? cuz even if he is enthusiastic and confident, one bad gig can ruin that.

good example:
yesterday i played a gig with a band i just joined, and im a guitarist/vocalist. so i did the first song, and it went ok (other guitarist snapped a string haha). now heres where it gets ugly.. we had organized to have the other guitarist to sing the second song, and we both play it (but now he had 5 strings so he just sang). so he starts singing and he is really nervous and his voice starts shaking a little bit. he isn't a bad singer just the shaking made it sound like he had a constant vibrato so it sounded a little off. anyway, we get offstage and a girl comes up and says to him "please don't sing again" this really cut through his confidence, and he closed up for the rest of the day. i dont think im gonna be able to get him to sing in front of an audience for a while.

so basicly the point of the story is that if your singer screws up bad enough, it's gonna kill him. so make sure he can do a good job before you guys do a show.

That's what we would call a 'Baptism of Fire' and you'd be surprised at how many singers have gone through the same thing or something similar.
It's all too easy for something to happen on stage that puts you off your stride and allows your nerves to start having an effect, try taking they guy to lots of jam nights and encourage him to get up and jam with different people. It'll get him used to dealing with 'on the spot' situations and re-build his confidence.
#24
Enthusiasm and talent seem to go hand in hand anyways. Even an enthusiastic person who is inexperienced will be eager to learn and become talented very quickly.
#25
Quote by bazmeister
yeah but a audience member shouldnt be so horrible.


Agreed.... but sometimes they are. The question is, how many other people who *didn't* say anything to anyone in the band go home and say, "Oh, I saw XXX last night. They really sucked. The guy couldn't sing at all."

Unfortunately a great band with a bad singer almost always gets labeled as a crappy band, whereas a crappy band with a great singer is much more readily accepted by an audience.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#26
enthusiasm
he cant be a bad singer, otherwise you would't be asking here and he will always get a better voice with time, while someone with no enthusiasm could bring a lifeless sound or show
My Gear

Squier VM p-bass(i chosed it over a fender!!!) with quarter pounder and gotoh 201!!
fender MIM P bass
epiphone SG 400
#27
Quote by SlackerBabbath
That's what we would call a 'Baptism of Fire' and you'd be surprised at how many singers have gone through the same thing or something similar.
It's all too easy for something to happen on stage that puts you off your stride and allows your nerves to start having an effect, try taking they guy to lots of jam nights and encourage him to get up and jam with different people. It'll get him used to dealing with 'on the spot' situations and re-build his confidence.


while it sounds like an excellent idea, its not really possible where i live. Perth, Australia is the sort of place where, if your not over the age of 30, there is nothing really exciting to do, ie a jam night or, for that matter, a decent enough place to organize a jam night that isn't going to cost the organizers a hell of a lot of money (if anyone knows of one please let me know!). we don't even have a decent concert hall for big famous bands who come here, and as a result not many do.

anyway back to the topic,
the 'Baptism of Fire' is clearly inevitable for a band to go through, but some people will not be able to handle it and will be very discouraged by it, so i s'pose the question is "can your enthusiastic singer fend off all the potential harsh criticism that s/he is going to get?
Who decided that pie would be sold on Tuesday but not Wednesday?
#28
Quote by Dunjma
while it sounds like an excellent idea, its not really possible where i live. Perth, Australia is the sort of place where, if your not over the age of 30, there is nothing really exciting to do, ie a jam night or, for that matter, a decent enough place to organize a jam night that isn't going to cost the organizers a hell of a lot of money (if anyone knows of one please let me know!). we don't even have a decent concert hall for big famous bands who come here, and as a result not many do.


Hmmm, looks like there's a gap in the market where you live, all you need is a building, (usualy a bar) a small kit, a couple of guitar amps, a bass amp and a small vocal PA and you're in business, I'd look into it if I were you, you could possibly be onto a good thing there.

Quote by Dunjma

anyway back to the topic,
the 'Baptism of Fire' is clearly inevitable for a band to go through, but some people will not be able to handle it and will be very discouraged by it, so i s'pose the question is "can your enthusiastic singer fend off all the potential harsh criticism that s/he is going to get?

Well that's where the enthusiasm comes in. Enthusiasm quite often goes hand in hand with confidence, infact, it's that confidence in one's own abilities that makes someone enthusiastic in the first place.
Someone with strong confidence will listen to someone who's criticising them, and although it may hurt their feelings at the time, they generaly eventualy say 'Huh, what do they know?' and simply shrug it off. And it's this attitude that gives a singer staying power, because without the confidence to just shrug off criticism, no singer, no matter how talented, is gonna last very long.
But a confident, enthusiastic singer will have staying power and even if they aren't a very good singer, can learn to be a good singer given enough time.
#29
Hmm i don't know... I mean just look at shows like X Factor or American Idol, you get people with shed loads of enthusiasm but cant sing for ****.

I'd go with the good voice, aslong as he's a nice guy, maybe when you talk to him more about your goals and after a gig or two he might liven up a bit.
#30
Quote by Kyle.E
Hmm i don't know... I mean just look at shows like X Factor or American Idol, you get people with shed loads of enthusiasm but cant sing for ****.


Careful... as much as we like to bash the 'manufactured idol' thing, we do have to acknowledge that the people who wind up being finalists really are very good singers. Just because we don't like what they're singing doesn't mean they can't sing well.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#31
Quote by axemanchris
Careful... as much as we like to bash the 'manufactured idol' thing, we do have to acknowledge that the people who wind up being finalists really are very good singers. Just because we don't like what they're singing doesn't mean they can't sing well.

CT


No no, I'm not calling them crap because of the genre or because of the whole pop-culture :P
I'm just saying, A LOT of people turn out to audition for those shows, and A LOT of them have an almost obsessive enthusiasm, but absolutely suck.
#32
Quote by axemanchris
Careful... as much as we like to bash the 'manufactured idol' thing, we do have to acknowledge that the people who wind up being finalists really are very good singers. Just because we don't like what they're singing doesn't mean they can't sing well.

CT

True, and look at those who do end up winning, they are invariably those who have both the voice and the enthusiasm and confidence to use it to the best of their ability.
Which is the ideal singer to have, someone with both natural talent and enthusiasm, but unfortunately finding someone like this is a rare as rocking horse poo, so we usualy have to choose either one way or the other, a naturaly talented singer or a singer with enthusiasm and confidence.
Quote by Kyle.E
No no, I'm not calling them crap because of the genre or because of the whole pop-culture :P
I'm just saying, A LOT of people turn out to audition for those shows, and A LOT of them have an almost obsessive enthusiasm, but absolutely suck.

But go back to these same people a few years down the line and their voices will have dramaticaly improved.
Anyone who sings for long enough will see some kind of improvement, but confidence and enthusiasm are different things to natural talent, it's very rare for an unconfident person to become confident, just a it's very rare for an unenthusiastic person to suddenly become enthusiastic, but with the right training, bad singers become good singers all the time.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Aug 24, 2008,
#33
Quote by SlackerBabbath
it's very rare for an unconfident person to become confident, just a it's very rare for an unenthusiastic person to suddenly become enthusiastic, but with the right training, bad singers become good singers all the time.


i will agree that it is rare for an unenthusiastic person to become enthusiastic, but I'm not sure about non-confident rarely becoming confident. picture yourself back in your first job, on your very first day. I'm sure you would have been very nervous and unsure as to what to do. to me this is what it means to not be confident, being unsure of yourself. but as time went on you would have gotten the hang on whatever it was you where doing, and had a sense of surety.

in terms of singing, not being confident will usually result in the person singing softer and deeper, trying to give themselves something to hang on to, ie singing softer means that if they screw up it will be less noticeable, and (at least for males im not sure about females) singing deeper gives a stronger sense of control. weather or not they have more control when singing deeper is debatable, and im not sure about the answer, but that is what it feels like to them. i myself have gone through this stage, from not being able to sing in front of even my friends, to belting out whenever i feel like it, no matter who is there.

and yes i definitely agree that bad singers can become good, as long as they practice lots and practice properly. its like learning to play any instrument, as that is all it is, just we form the sounds that we make with our voice to mean something, as opposed to just pleasant noises coming from my axe.
Who decided that pie would be sold on Tuesday but not Wednesday?
#34
Quote by Dunjma
i will agree that it is rare for an unenthusiastic person to become enthusiastic, but I'm not sure about non-confident rarely becoming confident. picture yourself back in your first job, on your very first day. I'm sure you would have been very nervous and unsure as to what to do. to me this is what it means to not be confident, being unsure of yourself. but as time went on you would have gotten the hang on whatever it was you where doing, and had a sense of surety.

I know what you mean, but there's a bit of difference between someone's first job, maybe working in a factory or something and building up your confidence as you learn to do the job, and singing in front of a crowd of possibly hostile strangers.
While an unconfident person will see learning to do one's job as a necessary part of life that everyone does and that they must now deal with, they will probably see singing publicly as an extravagance that only extroverts take part in, not really for them or any other introvert, and you probably wouldn't even be able to get them to sing in a band in the first place.
#35
I like to see enthusiasm.
If they're dedicated and enthusiastic about the band and its music, its really what you need. Talent can be learned and your don't need a virtuoso to start off a band with anyone. As long as he can pull the notes on his instruments and be able to hold a rhythm, he's got enough talent. The rest he can learn to get better with time.

But enthusiasm is the key. You don't wanna a really talented musician in the band who's barely interested, lazy and hardly shows up for practices.
You're much better off doing with a half decent musician who's always up and ready for anything (well, not anything but you get what i'm saying).
#36
Quote by Dunjma
well heres the thing.. is the enthusiastic guy good enough to hold himself up onstage? cuz even if he is enthusiastic and confident, one bad gig can ruin that.

good example:
yesterday i played a gig with a band i just joined, and im a guitarist/vocalist. so i did the first song, and it went ok (other guitarist snapped a string haha). now heres where it gets ugly.. we had organized to have the other guitarist to sing the second song, and we both play it (but now he had 5 strings so he just sang). so he starts singing and he is really nervous and his voice starts shaking a little bit. he isn't a bad singer just the shaking made it sound like he had a constant vibrato so it sounded a little off. anyway, we get offstage and a girl comes up and says to him "please don't sing again" this really cut through his confidence, and he closed up for the rest of the day. i dont think im gonna be able to get him to sing in front of an audience for a while.

so basicly the point of the story is that if your singer screws up bad enough, it's gonna kill him. so make sure he can do a good job before you guys do a show.


I sorta disagree to a point with this.
If you're really enthusiastic and passionate about what you do, it doesn't matter if you screw up cuz you can always pick yourself up and move on. It not tough.

I remember the first time i performed on stage. I was all nervous and shaky. I has to play a song on my acoustic and sing it too. I could barely play the chords properly on the guitar, my voice was all shaky and to top it all up, i forgot the lyrics to the song i was singing. Basically it was a big screw up. But well, you just shake it off by analyzing the mistakes you've made and trying to improve on it.
So the second time i was on the stage by myself, no i didn't put up a mind blowing performance, it was a bigger screw up!! I again forgot most of the words to the song, no one was barely interested in my performance, it was like i was just singing to myself... just very badly. At this point you might think okay that was it, now i'ld never be able to perform again on stage, my confidence would be completely shattered. I even had a couple of dickweeds come up to me and told me "dude, you can play the guitar but just don't open your mouth while playing it" (**** **** ****!!! ).

But thats exactly when perseverance pays off. I just picked myself up from that ****ty performance again. Got better at my playing skills, got better at my singing skills. Picked songs that suited me better and my third performance was quite amazing. No more nerves, no more shakiness, my playing was tight, my voice was loud and solid, it was great.

So what i'm saying is, if you're enthusiastic and passionate about something, all those little initial screw ups won't matter at all. You just learn from what you did wrong, improve on it and move on to do a better job next time!
#37
That whole baptism of fire could screw up someones enthusiasm, which is why if that happens you gotta reassure your singer to regain his enthusiasm, on the other hand if a singer had no enthusiasm and it happened he probably die. Just saying enthusiasm usually means good self-esteem and self-confidence.
#38
Get the person with more talent and MAKE him enthusiastic.
Quote by hostilekid
shadesofanger, you're my hero.


Quote by GoldenBlues
So I was wondering, are black people capable feeling love? I mean can their brains comprehend that kind of emotion, or are they not programmed that way.
#39
Enthused man. He is more likely to put on an energetic show. Make sure he can handle criticism though if he sucks really bad. But the more enthusiastic people you surround yourself with, the more fun you'll have. When someone isn't enthusiastic, its a real downer.
#40
Quote by shadesofanger
Get the person with more talent and MAKE him enthusiastic.

You see its harder to make a person with talent more enthusiastic than to make an enthusiastic person more talented. If he's enthusiastic and passionate about his music, he'll surely learn and improve his skills over time.
And the the dude above me mentioned, the more enthusiastic people you surround yourself with, the more fun it is.
Page 1 of 2