I know when you play in a major key there is a formula for the chords (major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished, major) but if you're playing in a minor key... how does that work?
Play the music, not the instrument. ~Author Unknown

blackzeppelion
Who's the band that could become the next led zeppelin?
Ovenman
Iron blimp.
J.A.M
Aluminum helicopter.
Ovenman
*Breaks out periodic table* Magnesium bi-plane.
Same way, take A minor:

Am
Bdim
C
Dm
Em
F
G

Same chords as C major, different order.
Starting on the sixth degree.

So use the major ones only putting the sixth degree as the first and continuing from there.
Quote by Wizards?
Confusius says, "No motherfucker!

Call me Kyrl, pronounced Curl

DOIN DAT FUNKY DANCE
You know how you find the relative minor (the minor key with the same key signature as a major key) but going to the 6th degree of the major scale? Well it's the same concept. Go to the 6th degree of that formula:
1=M 2=m 3=m 4=M 5=M 6=m 7=d

Then build it off of the 6th there and you get:
m d M m m M M m d

Quote by bangoodcharlote
While this is not diatonic, it is common to replace the v chord with the V chord, that is, replace Em with E or E7 in the key of Am.

In fact, E is played more often than Em.

This is true.

That is because a V7 has the intervals 1, 3, 5, b7. In a minor key those intervals are diatonic except for the 3. The 3, relative to the 1 of the key is a natural 7th degree. A minor key has a b7th so a V7 borrows the leading tone from the Harmonic Minor scale. That leads to a stronger resolution to the root.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”

-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Last edited by metal4all at Jul 22, 2008,
Quote by metal4all
You know how you find the relative minor (the minor key with the same key signature as a major key) but going to the 6th degree of the major scale? Well it's the same concept. Go to the 6th degree of that formula:
1=M 2=m 3=m 4=M 5=M 6=m 7=d

Then build it off of the 6th there and you get:
m d M m m M M m d

That makes sense. I pretty much suspected that anyway.

Quote by metal4all
This is true.

That is because a V7 has the intervals 1, 3, 5, b7. In a minor key those intervals are diatonic except for the 3. The 3, relative to the 1 of the key is a natural 7th degree. A minor key has a b7th so a V7 borrows the leading tone from the Harmonic Minor scale. That leads to a stronger resolution to the root.

I didn't quite get that, but okay sounds good.
Play the music, not the instrument. ~Author Unknown

blackzeppelion
Who's the band that could become the next led zeppelin?
Ovenman
Iron blimp.
J.A.M
Aluminum helicopter.
Ovenman
*Breaks out periodic table* Magnesium bi-plane.
Quote by MarshmallowPies
That makes sense. I pretty much suspected that anyway.

I didn't quite get that, but okay sounds good.

I could show you an example if you want.

Edit: Sue said it.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”

-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Quote by metal4all

That is because a V7 has the intervals 1, 3, 5, b7. In a minor key those intervals are diatonic except for the 3. The 3, relative to the 1 of the key is a natural 7th degree. A minor key has a b7th so a V7 borrows the leading tone from the Harmonic Minor scale. That leads to a stronger resolution to the root.

Very good that you pointed that out Sean. Well done. Beat me to it.
Last edited by mdc at Jul 23, 2008,
Quote by bangoodcharlote
While this is not diatonic, it is common to replace the v chord with the V chord, that is, replace Em with E or E7 in the key of Am.

In fact, E is played more often than Em.
+1

And the G will sometimes be played as a G#diminished.
``````        ,
|\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
*-|-*    (_)     `-’
|
L.``````
That G# is to indicate melodic or harmonic minor, right?
Quote by Wizards?
Confusius says, "No motherfucker!

Call me Kyrl, pronounced Curl

DOIN DAT FUNKY DANCE
^ Harmonising the Melodic in thirds, yup, correct
But couldn't it also be the harmonic seeing that it has a major seventh making the G a G#?

Quote by Wizards?
Confusius says, "No motherfucker!

Call me Kyrl, pronounced Curl

DOIN DAT FUNKY DANCE
Quote by confusius
That G# is to indicate melodic or harmonic minor, right?
When writing in minor keys, most composers wouldnt suggest against using JUST the natural minor or JUST the melodic or harmonic. It's more likely that a composer would use a combination of all three.
``````        ,
|\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
*-|-*    (_)     `-’
|
L.``````
But that does no answer my question. I know that composers write in all types of minor, hell you can hear it when you play a piece in a minor key, but I was asking if the G# could indicate harmonic minor or melodic minor. He said it was melodic and I asked if it could also be harmonic because of the major seventh.
Quote by Wizards?
Confusius says, "No motherfucker!

Call me Kyrl, pronounced Curl

DOIN DAT FUNKY DANCE
^ yes it can. I only quoted melodic cuz I thought you knew it was from the Harmonic already.
Well it's in both. The VII chord in natural minor is major (or dom7) so if you sharp the root you get G#°
^I fail to see the point in a bVII7 chord. It would want to move to the III chord which would resolve the peice making it major instead of minor. Not good.
Quote by confusius
But that does no answer my question. I know that composers write in all types of minor, hell you can hear it when you play a piece in a minor key, but I was asking if the G# could indicate harmonic minor or melodic minor. He said it was melodic and I asked if it could also be harmonic because of the major seventh.

Melodic: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Harmonic: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

Both have a major seventh
``````        ,
|\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
*-|-*    (_)     `-’
|
L.``````
Quote by demonofthenight
^I fail to see the point in a bVII7 chord. It would want to move to the III chord which would resolve the peice making it major instead of minor. Not good.Sorry, and yeah your right.

I like the sound of it. That's why I use it (usually without the 7th to be fair), but I like the sound of vii° aswell. I think it sounds nice moving from that down to the bVII.
Quote by Eirien
I like the sound of it. That's why I use it (usually without the 7th to be fair), but I like the sound of vii° aswell. I think it sounds nice moving from that down to the bVII.
Yeah, if that works for you do it. Not doing something because its not theoretically correct, or doing something because its theoretically correct, is for chumps. Your ear is just as important in writing as your theor\etical knowledge.
``````        ,
|\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
*-|-*    (_)     `-’
|
L.``````
Quote by demonofthenight
Yeah, if that works for you do it. Not doing something because its not theoretically correct, or doing something because its theoretically correct, is for chumps. Your ear is just as important in writing as your theor\etical knowledge.

Yeah theory is just supposed to guide you in the direction you want to go.
Quote by demonofthenight
^I fail to see the point in a bVII7 chord. It would want to move to the III chord which would resolve the peice making it major instead of minor. Not good.

Unless, of course, you want to modulate to the relative major, which is not uncommon.

I don't think that you're incorrect, though, to think that the VII7 is uncommon; one of my teachers would normally analyze those chords either as a secondary dominant of III (if there was no modulation) or as the V7 if a modulation occurred.
(Slightly outdated) Electronic and classical compositions by m'self: Check 'em out
Quote by bangoodcharlote
While this is not diatonic, it is common to replace the v chord with the V chord, that is, replace Em with E or E7 in the key of Am.

In fact, E is played more often than Em.

Why is that? To be able to use the major rather than the minor?
This will not be sugar coated, so don't be surprised if you're confused the first time you read my post. WHile I'm happy to answer questions, save us both some time and read the post a few times before asking me anything. Thanks.

Quote by HoldYourColour
Why is that? To be able to use the major rather than the minor?
In a major key, the V7 - I resolution is very solid. In a minor key, the v - i resolution is weak in comparison. Musicians realized this early on and decided to bend the rules and play V7 - i instead, justifying it by the classic, "it sounds good."

With modern theory based on this analysis, we can consider the V7 chord to come from the parallel harmonic minor scale. A common way to apply this is the Am G F E7 Am G F E7 progression. You approach the Am, G, and F chords as part of the A natural minor scale when you solo or play a melody over them, and then over the E7, you would play A Harmonic Minor. You could also play A Melodic Minor since it also contains the G# note, though the scale's F# note may sound weird right after an F chord.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
This will not be sugar coated, so don't be surprised if you're confused the first time you read my post. WHile I'm happy to answer questions, save us both some time and read the post a few times before asking me anything. Thanks.

In a major key, the V7 - I resolution is very solid. In a minor key, the v - i resolution is weak in comparison. Musicians realized this early on and decided to bend the rules and play V7 - i instead, justifying it by the classic, "it sounds good."

With modern theory based on this analysis, we can consider the V7 chord to come from the parallel harmonic minor scale. A common way to apply this is the Am G F E7 Am G F E7 progression. You approach the Am, G, and F chords as part of the A natural minor scale when you solo or play a melody over them, and then over the E7, you would play A Harmonic Minor. You could also play A Melodic Minor since it also contains the G# note, though the scale's F# note may sound weird right after an F chord.