#1
Ok, I know how to build triads, 7ths and on, suspended chords and all of that but I have a question with triads.

Say you have a chord with an E,G#, and D#. Now a normal Emaj triad would be E-G#-B, but since there is no 5th in my example, would my example still be considered an Emaj7 even though it has no 5th?

Same thing with no 3rd. Say this time the chord has an E,B, and D#. It has the root, 5th, and 7th this time. So would it still be considered a Emaj7 chord here also?

So if anyone understands my question, can you please tell me if I am right or not?
Quote by Seryaph
You need to douse it in a 20/30/50 ratio of mustard/ketchup/horseradish and stroke it as fast as you can untill the mayonaise squirts out. Then consume.
#2
as far as i know, you always need a 5th if you are playing a 7th, 9th, 11th so on so forth chord. I think you might not need a 3rd though... i'm not an expert by any means though
Quote by Mr. La Fritz

Squirrels are fluffy bits of gay.


Quote by LordPino
My penis is so big it has its own hands.
#4
Quote by GITARdud391
I'm pretty sure that can exist, I've seen chords like that before they just say Emaj7(no 5th).

Also you need the third to state the tonality of the chord-major or minor.


err, no you don't NEED it. 5th chords?

you do get just 7ths as well as maj and min 7ths.
Quote by Mr. La Fritz

Squirrels are fluffy bits of gay.


Quote by LordPino
My penis is so big it has its own hands.
#5
Quote by dark_gilbert
as far as i know, you always need a 5th if you are playing a 7th, 9th, 11th so on so forth chord.

No, the fifth is tonally the least important note.

TS: You can call them by various names; it's going to be largely the context that determines what name makes the most sense.
#7
Quote by dark_gilbert
err, no you don't NEED it. 5th chords?

you do get just 7ths as well as maj and min 7ths.
A "regular" 7th chord is a dominant 7th chord, clearly defined as having a major third and minor seventh.

TS, you don't need all the notes in the chord, especially when you get to heavily extended chords. You just need enough to get the tonality that you want.
#8
Quote by GITARdud391
What's a 5th chord?


/facepalm

what degrees of a scale are a powerchord made of.
Quote by Mr. La Fritz

Squirrels are fluffy bits of gay.


Quote by LordPino
My penis is so big it has its own hands.
#10
Quote by :-D
Be nice.

GITARdud, a "fifth chord" is a power chord.


Oh ok, well, I've never heard of them called that before. Anyways power chords are barely chords, they're just really badass sounding intervals.
#11
Quote by :-D
Be nice.

GITARdud, a "fifth chord" is a power chord.


jah, i should be shouldnt i?

specially since im pretty terrible at theory
Quote by Mr. La Fritz

Squirrels are fluffy bits of gay.


Quote by LordPino
My penis is so big it has its own hands.
#12
Quote by GITARdud391
Oh ok, well, I've never heard of them called that before. Anyways power chords are barely chords, they're just really badass sounding intervals.

Actually, you're right on, the name's misleading; it's not a chord but just an interval.

dark_gilbert: No worries.
#13
If it sounds good, then I guess you don't need it. Theory is a guide, not a law for music.
#14
Quote by dark_gilbert
err, no you don't NEED it. 5th chords?

you do get just 7ths as well as maj and min 7ths.

Well, he said for major or minor chords, so you would indeed need the third to show whether or not it is major or minor. The absence of a third in a powerchord is what makes it so versatile. It is neither major nor minor.
#15
Quote by fob12
If it sounds good, then I guess you don't need it. Theory is a guide, not a law for music.


Theory is descriptive, and words have definitions. He's asking if a chord can still be describes as such if a note is removed, and the answer is: Sometimes.


TS: The 5th is very often omitted, as it is so consonant with the root as to be tonally irrelevant. The third, however, is the most important note in the chord, as it determines tonality. You can omit it, but the result could not be considered a maj7 chord unless you had some pretty special context.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#16
Quote by GITARdud391
What's a 5th chord?

A glorified power chord. It's what people call a power chord when they want to make it sound more sophisticated.
#17
Hey thanks for all the replies, and I forgot to mention one more thing that one of you sort of touched on. How do you have a chord with no root in it? Can you just make any chord not have a root?
Quote by Seryaph
You need to douse it in a 20/30/50 ratio of mustard/ketchup/horseradish and stroke it as fast as you can untill the mayonaise squirts out. Then consume.
#18
Quote by hothead69999
Hey thanks for all the replies, and I forgot to mention one more thing that one of you sort of touched on. How do you have a chord with no root in it? Can you just make any chord not have a root?
Yes. It's just that if you do that, a lot of the time, it loses its tonality. For example, in C major, an Em7 without an E is going to sound very much like a G. Other times though, you can get away with it. On the other hand, if you have a bassist playing an E, you, as a guitarist, can be fine just playing a G chord.
#19
Quote by hothead69999
Hey thanks for all the replies, and I forgot to mention one more thing that one of you sort of touched on. How do you have a chord with no root in it? Can you just make any chord not have a root?


Absolutely. Rootless voicing are fairly common jazz music, though you're less likely to find them elsewhere. They're generally only used when the surrounding chords or the baseline implies the root.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#20
i have a question!! this relates somewhat to dual guitar harmonies

lets say you have a diad such as G + B or C + E (root and third) would you consider this just a major diad or a major chord with the fifth omitted? moreso, does it matter? im thinking it depends on the underlying chords and movement. for example if the chord under the G+B was an e minor and the diad was an octave above it, would you consider that just an extension of the e minor? (i would personally, just looking for others opinions)

and subsequently if the chord underneath it was a G major would you consider it an extension of that?

lastly if the chord under it was a C major (and the G+B was still an octave higher) would you consider it one big chord like a C7? (again i think i would based on just chord naming principles)
#21
Quote by z4twenny
i have a question!! this relates somewhat to dual guitar harmonies

lets say you have a diad such as G + B or C + E (root and third) would you consider this just a major diad or a major chord with the fifth omitted? moreso, does it matter? im thinking it depends on the underlying chords and movement. for example if the chord under the G+B was an e minor and the diad was an octave above it, would you consider that just an extension of the e minor? (i would personally, just looking for others opinions)

and subsequently if the chord underneath it was a G major would you consider it an extension of that?

lastly if the chord under it was a C major (and the G+B was still an octave higher) would you consider it one big chord like a C7? (again i think i would based on just chord naming principles)


yeah, its a simple matter of context. You seem to understand that.
shred is gaudy music
#22
^ thats what i figured, i was just seeing if someone else might look at it in a different way than i view it.
#23
Quote by dark_gilbert
err, no you don't NEED it. 5th chords?

You don't need a third in a powerchord. Thats why there are no Major or Minor powerchords.

EDIT: A little late
Gear:
Gibson Faded Flying V

Marshall MG100HDFX
Marshall MA50C

Boss DS-1
Digitech RP50
Digitech Whammy IV
Vox V847 Wah Pedal
Last edited by lagunasunrise at Jul 26, 2008,
#24
Quote by lagunasunrise
You don't need a third in a powerchord. Thats why there are no Major or Minor powerchords.


There's never a third in a power chord.
#25
I thought DG was asking about thirds in powerchords. I misread it. I was trying to tell him that there wasn't.
Gear:
Gibson Faded Flying V

Marshall MG100HDFX
Marshall MA50C

Boss DS-1
Digitech RP50
Digitech Whammy IV
Vox V847 Wah Pedal
#26
Quote by Archeo Avis
They're generally only used when the surrounding chords or the baseline implies the root.
Would you use them in a solo performance?
#27
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Would you use them in a solo performance?


depends on the setting...pop/rock songs or a jazz group

in most Pop/Rock song structures chords hold the harmonic back round of the melody and require the most definition and duration so the ear can recognize the harmonic movement and anticipate its resolve.

chordal structures in jazz harmony have entirely different functions and may move in several directions at once, that is they may be intersecting two "key centers" at the same time, and depending on the players "thinking" may be moving toward a new key center or away from one...so the use of altered 7ths and "partial" extended dominant chords are not " static back round harmony" chords that are used for several bars in a song structure..but are "harmonic devices" that use fragments of harmony and melody to establish temporary tension and resolve in several places within a piece of music...

they may be used for just a portion of a beat or as stated by others they compliment other harmonic or even percussive elements in a group setting and may be static while the bass or other instruments fill in notes that make the guitar chords make more "music sense" to the ear

i realize this is advanced jazz harmony "theory" but it may give insight to some as to how "jazz chords" have their own "rules" or lack of them...

wolf
#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Would you use them in a solo performance?


I would and have.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
What would define the root?


The surrounding chords, or the established tonal center. If I were to play the progression...

IV - I(6/4) - V7 (no root) - I

...it's a fair bet that the V would still function as such, since the I (6/4) resolves well to it, and contain the 5th in the bass. Not only does the use of a 6/4 scream for the dominant, but the ear is still hearing that fifth in the bass from the previous chord. I think that would be more than enough to imply the root of the V chord.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Jul 26, 2008,
#32
Quote by bangoodcharlote
What does "I(6/4)" mean?


It's a tonic chord in the second inversion. The third and root are a sixth and a fourth above the fifth, respectively. It strongly establishes tonality because it not only contains the notes of the tonic chord, but resolves to the dominant as well. You would generally use it before a cadence of some sort. It's called a Six Four Chord, but I really didn't know how to write it in this context, so I just wrote it as (6/4).
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#33
Let's see if I've not this, Arch. Is the following correct?




Just wondering: Why wouldn't you play a 6-string E chord both times?

Edit: For that first E chord, assume there is a B fretted on the second fret of the A string. Then is it correct?
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Jul 26, 2008,
#34
I'm going to quote Piston's Harmony...

When the notes of a triad are arranged so that the original fifth becomes the lowest tone, the triad is said to be in the second inversion, and in this position is known as the six-four chord, the intervals between the upper and lower voices being a sixth and a fourth...

...the commonest type of six-four chord is the tonic six-four preceding a dominant chord in a cadence. It has the cedential effect of a dominant in which the sixth and fourth above the bass form an appoggiature to the fifth and third respectively, while at the same time the ear is attracted to the tonic degree as a moving tone. Thus the tonic six-four chord in a way shares tonic and dominant properties simultaneously,and for this reason it is harmonically strong even though it must be resolved,

In four part writing the bass of the cadential six-four chord is doubled, since it is an inactive tone, and also since it is the real root of the dominant chord in root position.

The harmony preceding the cadential six-four chord is one that would normally precede the dominant, as in IV-V, II-V, sometimes VI-V (especially in minor), and even I-V...the dominant chord itself is a less satisfactory preparation for the cadential six-four.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Jul 26, 2008,
#35
I'm not reading this entire thread but i want to throw in:

With extended chords the 5th interval is usually the 1st note to be left out. The 3rd and 7th are the most important because they establish major/minor tonality as well as major/minor/dominant tonality. After the 5th the 9th could be left out (for an 11th or 13th chord) and for a 13th chord the 5th, 9th, or 11th could be left out.

The biggest exception to that is if the root is left out. That's not uncommon and you can usually spot it being played by the bass part.


To Sue,

4/6 means the second inversion of a chord.
3/6 means 1st inversion of the chord

Say with a G major chord: G, B, D

If you put it in 1st inversion you get: B, D, G. Well B-D is a 3rd (minor 3rd but still a 3) and B-G is a 6th (minor 6th to be exact).

G major second inversion makes: D, G, B. D-G is a 4th. D-B is a 6th.


Edit: I see Archeo explained it thoroughly and confusingly so i'm just gonna back out of the thread slowly.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
Last edited by metal4all at Jul 26, 2008,
#36
Quote by hothead69999
Ok, I know how to build triads, 7ths and on, suspended chords and all of that but I have a question with triads.

Say you have a chord with an E,G#, and D#. Now a normal Emaj triad would be E-G#-B, but since there is no 5th in my example, would my example still be considered an Emaj7 even though it has no 5th?

Same thing with no 3rd. Say this time the chord has an E,B, and D#. It has the root, 5th, and 7th this time. So would it still be considered a Emaj7 chord here also?

So if anyone understands my question, can you please tell me if I am right or not?



your fifth is not giving you a major tonanlity as minor uses it as well

most 7th chords (ei major7th mino7th and dom7th ) when written as an interval formula have the fifth shown as optional and leads me to believe that you do not have t0 specify whether it has been left out

the formulas are written

MAJ7th

1 3 (5) 7

min7th

1 b3 (5) b7

dom7th

1 3 (5) 7


i an half asleep i reall f'd up on that one i can't believe i didn't get called on it any ways sorry

delete's a mistake

i was looking at 7sus4 and put a 1 3 4 (as it is 1 3 4(5) 7)chord but got messed up and put a sus4 as 1 3 4 instead of 1 4 5
Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jul 26, 2008,
#37
Quote by lagunasunrise
You don't need a third in a powerchord. Thats why there are no Major or Minor powerchords.

EDIT: A little late



yes there is there called diads major and minor there not technically power chords but they are just 2 intervals

smiley says they sound muddy. this is not an insult just more info

but they go like this



this is what is known as an AMAJ diad it is a moveable shape
e--
B--
G--
D--
A-4
E-5

this is an Amin diad also moveable shape

e--
B--
G--
D--
A-3
E-5

#38
Quote by lbc_sublime
yes there is there called diads major and minor there not technically power chords but they are just 2 intervals

smiley says they sound muddy. this is not an insult just more info

but they go like this



this is what is known as an AMAJ diad it is a moveable shape
e--
B--
G--
D--
A-4
E-5

this is an Amin diad also moveable shape

e--
B--
G--
D--
A-3
E-5


They're still not powerchords so their post was in fact correct. They (being diads) are really just intervals. I use them a lot in my playing (hell a song i just finished yesterday has a whole section full of them).

A question about them, would it be written Xmajor(no5)?
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#39
Quote by metal4all
They're still not powerchords so their post was in fact correct. They (being diads) are really just intervals. I use them a lot in my playing (hell a song i just finished yesterday has a whole section full of them).

A question about them, would it be written Xmajor(no5)?



i have them notated as just A or Amin EDIT in a lesson called death metal diads

but i would think i would be called something more like A3 and Ab3
#40
Quote by quinny1089
Although i would be apprehensive of throwing a cadential 6/4 into anything that wasn't typically classical four-part writing


As would I, but I've been studying classical harmony lately, so I've started trying to relate it to everything I know.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.