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#1
So, I just got back from the Dark Knight for the second time (first with the guys, just now with my GF), and both times, I have felt, empathetic, with the Joker. I also, believe it or not, agreed with a bit of his Philosophy.

Now, I am not a psychopathic mass murderer who just does it for fun, but some of the things he said about chaos and fairness, I just agreed with it.
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#3
I sympathized with him too.
Its the nihilist philosophy, nothing the joker said was wrong.
In fact, the whole point of the movie is that the joker is no more a bad guy than batman, or even the innocent civilians of Gotham.
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Last edited by Ez0ph at Jul 26, 2008,
#4
Yes, I sort of wanted him to win, too. And before anyone says, "Dark Knight thread", this is a philosophy discussion, not a simple movie discussion.
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#5
Yeah the same thing happened to me. And it's really weird like I could never imagine myself killing someone and it is one of the last things I would ever want to do but I thought the way he did things was so...smart and intriguing and correct. Weird
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#6
Quote by Bonesaw
i wanted him to win through out the entire movie
omfg me too lmfao
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#7
Is it a problem that I identified with Jigsaw?

Unless you intend on becoming a supervillain, don't worry.
#8
I just saw the movie today in IMAX and i nearly puked from being dizzy but i liked the Joker's philosophy especially when he was talking about everyone being schemers
#9
Quote by Ez0ph
I sympathized with him too.
Its the nihilist philosophy, nothing the joker said was wrong.
In fact, the whole point of the movie is that the joker is no more a bad guy than batman, or even the innocent civilians of Gotham.



It's true, you just might be a nihilist TS.

I get like that too
#11
That's what makes him so sinister, he makes sense. It's not just some idiot going "weee, I kill everyone", his logic actually makes sense in a twisted way.
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#12
I agreed with the point he made about people and their plans (or scheming). Although I don't totally rule out "planning" to do things, I usually just live life "as is."
#13
Quote by Bonesaw
i wanted him to win through out the entire movie

yeah, in one of the graphic novels (can't remember the name), the joker gets the closest he ever will to "defeating" batman: if i remember correctly, he shot Barbara Gordon (aka Batgirl) leaving her paralyzed; Bats then hunted him down and began to beat him, he was about to kill him when Commissioner Gordon shows up and stops him. It is then that he realizes that since he was about to commit murder, he and the Joker are not that different after all.
#15
the joker is a sociopath who feels the need to kill and make people lose and fail similar to the way that the rest of us feel the need to have sex. he isnt happy doing it, and they never actually give any definite origin for him or his scars during the movie.

basically, if you feel the need, the desire, to kill another human being, thats feeling empathy for the joker.

edit: hes more existentialist than nihilist, a "city only exists in our heads" sortof ideal. and to those of who have found this "intriguing", have you not read any good books? whatever, that doesnt matter.

oh, and watchmen probably wont be that awesome compared to the graphic novel, cus its pretty hard to condense twelve chapters into 2.5 hours. of course, the graphic novel was ****ing sweet, so it should be a pretty sweet movie nonetheless
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Last edited by spiderjerusalem at Jul 26, 2008,
#16
I always want the "villians" but the joker was by far my favorite.The idea of not living by any rules really is the only true way to live,I would love to live like that free of all the mother****ers who say what I can and cant do and try to control everyones life.
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#17
i havent seen the movie, but the joker looks like he just f*cking ate a person
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#18
Quote by stringmagician
Also, Watchmen looks ****ing amazing!


indeed it does I'm looking forward to it greatly movie 0f '09 you'll see
Quote by Sound Mind
yeah, in one of the graphic novels (can't remember the name), the joker gets the closest he ever will to "defeating" batman: if i remember correctly, he shot Barbara Gordon (aka Batgirl) leaving her paralyzed; Bats then hunted him down and began to beat him, he was about to kill him when Commissioner Gordon shows up and stops him. It is then that he realizes that since he was about to commit murder, he and the Joker are not that different after all.


I believe the comic you are referring to is "the Killing Joke"
#20
Is it a problem that I identified with John Wayne Gacy?


nope i found charlie manson to be a standup guy,i mean come on look at the guy wat did he do that was so bad?
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#21
Quote by roger88
nope i found charlie manson to be a standup guy,i mean come on look at the guy wat did he do that was so bad?


No not at all.
#22
Quote by Spartan070sarge
Yes, I sort of wanted him to win, too. And before anyone says, "Dark Knight thread", this is a philosophy discussion, not a simple movie discussion.

lol?
#23
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Is it a problem that I identified with John Wayne Gacy?

Yes. Yes it is.
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#26
really? because I got the impression that the joker was the bad guy...what with blowing up everybody...???

actually, now that you mention, i kinda wanted him to win to some extent too.

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#27
A charactor like him or jigsaw is meant to make people leave the theatre going 'that sounds so wrong, but so right at the same time'

Almost everyone leaves with the feeling you guys are talking about, its not wrong infact its intentional.

They are extremists who force their views upon other people and see their own way and no other. This is why they are villans, i doubt anyone here is capable of remorseless genocide anyways.
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#28
i think we were supposed to identify with him a little bit. i could be wrong, but isn't there a little bit (or a lot) of the joker in all of us? the joker in the movie was trying to pull it out and make it a more driving force of chaos.
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#29
Quote by spiderjerusalem
the joker is a sociopath who feels the need to kill and make people lose and fail similar to the way that the rest of us feel the need to have sex. he isnt happy doing it, and they never actually give any definite origin for him or his scars during the movie.

basically, if you feel the need, the desire, to kill another human being, thats feeling empathy for the joker.

edit: hes more existentialist than nihilist, a "city only exists in our heads" sortof ideal. and to those of who have found this "intriguing", have you not read any good books? whatever, that doesnt matter.



What? The joker isn't sociopathic at all. It's all nihilistic, he explained pretty clearly that all he wants to do is show everyone how pathetic their plans and order are. It had nothing to do with killing people, he just had no regard for human life, and what throws things deeper into chaos than everybody dying? If you're a nihilist, than nothing matters because eventually, like the Joker said, "Everything burns."

Also, existentialism is more about, "I am the only thing that is real. I am the only agent of change in life," which has nothing to do with what the Joker was about.
#30
Quote by SuPaGrAm
A charactor like him or jigsaw is meant to make people leave the theatre going 'that sounds so wrong, but so right at the same time'

Almost everyone leaves with the feeling you guys are talking about, its not wrong infact its intentional.

They are extremists who force their views upon other people and see their own way and no other. This is why they are villans, i doubt anyone here is capable of remorseless genocide anyways.


I agree but I don't see how you can say they are villains after you understood the movie.
The whole point is that they aren't villains, and that there is no such thing as villains because morality isn't as black and white as good and bad, villain and hero.
Its all subjective to different viewpoints, and that the only real fair judgement is chance.

Quote by stringmagician
What? The joker isn't sociopathic at all. It's all nihilistic, he explained pretty clearly that all he wants to do is show everyone how pathetic their plans and order are. It had nothing to do with killing people, he just had no regard for human life, and what throws things deeper into chaos than everybody dying? If you're a nihilist, than nothing matters because eventually, like the Joker said, "Everything burns."

Also, existentialism is more about, "I am the only thing that is real. I am the only agent of change in life," which has nothing to do with what the Joker was about.


Exactly, couldn't have said it better
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#31
Quote by Ez0ph
I agree but I don't see how you can say they are villains after you understood the movie.
The whole point is that they aren't villains, and that there is no such thing as villains because morality isn't as black and white as good and bad, villain and hero.
Its all subjective to different viewpoints, and that the only real fair judgement is chance.


Exactly, couldn't have said it better


Thank you


And I believe the other guy meant that although we may agree with the views some super villains have, none of us are going to be rigging hospitals with explosive charges any time soon.
#32
Quote by stringmagician
Thank you


And I believe the other guy meant that although we may agree with the views some super villains have, none of us are going to be rigging hospitals with explosive charges any time soon.


You don't know that

>.>
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#33
The Joker has always been my favorite villain; I've always wanted to see the world destroyed and burned, with anarchy and chaos in the middle of it as humanity eats itself alive (not literally eat each other, thats just sick).
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#34
Joker is pretty awesome as a villain i mean he's been portrayed amazingly twice by two great actors.
#35
Quote by Spartan070sarge
So, I just got back from the Dark Knight for the second time (first with the guys, just now with my GF), and both times, I have felt, empathetic, with the Joker. I also, believe it or not, agreed with a bit of his Philosophy.

Now, I am not a psychopathic mass murderer who just does it for fun, but some of the things he said about chaos and fairness, I just agreed with it.

So you've got to have a purpose do you?

And no, I'm with you, he seems to be "damaged goods" and I continually kept finding myself feeling bad that he was about to be caught/killed etc.
#36
I share in his philosophy.
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#37
Quote by The Leader
The Joker has always been my favorite villain; I've always wanted to see the world destroyed and burned, with anarchy and chaos in the middle of it as humanity eats itself alive (not literally eat each other, thats just sick).



You don't mind the world burning, but cannabalism gives you the willies?

You need to learn a thing or two about anarchy
#38
I get what you guys are talking about and I get the point of the movie... but I think some of you are thinking too far into things.


He was ****ing killing people

From the Joker's perspective, was Batman a villain? Yes. But that's to be expected when someone is ****ing killing people (Joker) and someone else is trying to get him to NOT kill people (Batman).


/mytwocents
#39
Quote by mrcrono
I get what you guys are talking about and I get the point of the movie... but I think some of you are thinking too far into things.


He was ****ing killing people

From the Joker's perspective, was Batman a villain? Yes. But that's to be expected when someone is ****ing killing people (Joker) and someone else is trying to get him to NOT kill people (Batman).


/mytwocents



When you put into perspective how many people have died at the hands of organized religion and government, the number of people the Joker killed in the movie to prove his point is pretty unimpressive.
#40
Quote by Draken
Joker is pretty awesome as a villain i mean he's been portrayed amazingly twice by two great actors.

The Joker is one of the best (and one of my favourite) characters I've come across in anything; books, comics or film. He is just straight up, completely ****ing mental.

Oh, and another thing, in this film, Heath Ledger's joker completely dicks all over Jack Nicholson's. Which is saying quite a lot.
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