#1
Alright, so I did the thing most Peavey Valveking users do: Change all of the tubes and replaced the speakers with celestion V30's.

So I installed the tubes and wired the speakers just like they were wired with the old speakers. After doing all that, I turn my amp on, the power tubes start glowing up nicely, so I let them warm up for a few minutes. Then i'm ready to start playing, so I turn the 2nd switch on, and the thing just says POP. I put it in standby again, leave it for a few minutes, and then turn it on again. Sure enough, it says 'pop' again, only a little louder than the first time.

I know that I'll probably have to have it serviced by a tech but does anyone know what could be wrong here? I'm guessing it isn't the tubes, but something with the speakers? Did I comletely destroy them?

Any help would be great.
#2
Sounds like you might have wired it incorrectly or something. I wouldn't keep turning it, go get it checked out.

If it is a faulty speaker, return it.

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#3
speaker most likely. same thing happened to me with my vox ad30vt
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#4
After it pops, can you get any sound out of it? or does it turn off, or does no sound come out?
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#6
You can't bias Valvekings ^

Check the connections to make sure it's all good. If it's making a pop noise then the speaker is connected and working (to a degree...)
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#7
Quote by MrCarrot
You can't bias Valvekings ^

Check the connections to make sure it's all good. If it's making a pop noise then the speaker is connected and working (to a degree...)


The reason i asked is because alot of times people will have a bias pot installed when they retube there amp so they can bias the amp. But you are correct Peaveys are biased cold and are none adjustable from the factory so there shouldnt be a need to bias them, but its still a good idea to check the plate voltage and see where your at voltage wise.

Just throwing out ideas...
Last edited by IbanezPsycho at Jul 29, 2008,
#8
Quote by IbanezPsycho
The reason i asked is because alot of times people will have a bias pot installed when they retube there amp so they can bias the amp. But you are correct Peaveys are biased cold and are none adjustable from the factory so there shouldnt be a need to bias them, but its still a good idea to check the plate voltage and see where your at voltage wise. Then fine tune from there...
Yeah fair enough, what I would do is swap out the tubes back for stock again just to see if the new ones are buggered or if it's the speaker. If it continues to not work then it's the speaker which is damaged, which is very unlikely...
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#9
Are you sure the speakers are wired correctly? Do the v30s have the same impedance as the stock speakers?
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#10
Quote by IbanezPsycho
Un-plug the speaker and check it with a multimeter and see what ohm load its showing. Also did you bias the power tubes?


OKay... you realize that the resistance it's going to show is going to be very low compared to the resistance when in use? As more power is applied to the speaker, it'll be higher. The impedance given is only the nominal impedance, not the real impedance. Using an incorrect ohm load, when it's within 2:1 will not kill an amp immediately.

When the amp "pops" look at the power tubes. does one flicker? If so, change that tube.

possibly you had the speakers wired backwards though.
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Last edited by Reincaster at Jul 29, 2008,
#11
thanks for the input. But if the amp doesn't make any weird noises when in stand-by, doesn't that eliminate tube failure? Since technically the tubes are already working? Or am I completely wrong here?

I just wired the speakers the same way the old ones were wired. Does anyone maybe have a guide for how to wire V30's or speakers in general, so maybe I can have a look and see if I did something wrong.
#12
Quote by Reincaster
OKay... you realize that the resistance it's going to show is going to be very low compared to the resistance when in use? As more power is applied to the speaker, it'll be higher. The impedance given is only the nominal impedance, not the real impedance. Using an incorrect ohm load, when it's within 2:1 will not kill an amp immediately.

When the amp "pops" look at the power tubes. does one flicker? If so, change that tube.


A blown speaker can show a reading of less then 1 ohm there for over-reving the amp or appear as an open or infinite resistance which can fry components in the amp, such as the output transformer or power tubes. Which is why i stated that he needs to check the speaker with a multimeter.... But you must of relized that right

Also its always best to check out what ohm load the speaker or speakers are putting out before you crank up the amp to check for wiring mistakes or bad speakers.
#13
you cant wire speakers in backwards

if in doubt, make it how it was the last time it worked. starting with tubes, because theyre easiest
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#14
Quote by IbanezPsycho
A blown speaker can show a reading of less then 1 ohm there for over-reving the amp or appear as an open or infinite resistance which can fry components in the amp, such as the output transformer or power tubes. Which is why i stated that he needs to check the speaker with a multimeter.... But you must of relized that right

Also its always best to check out what ohm load the speaker or speakers are putting out before you crank up the amp to check for wiring mistakes or bad speakers.


http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb04/articles/polk/impedence.htm

But of course, in the audio world, simple spec numbers rarely adequately describe real-world performance. When a speaker is specified as being "8-Ohms," that is really an oversimplification of a complex issue. A speaker's impedance is different at different frequencies!

Back to the pipe: A speaker's impedance actually behaves like a water pipe that is constantly changing its diameter! For a fraction of a millisecond it's 4" in diameter, the next millisecond it's 6" in diameter, then back to 4", up to 8", and so on and on. Add to this the fact that the "water pressure and flow," the audio signal, is constantly changing its own intensity. Things get louder and softer. Frequencies change. Nothing is constant.


And yes, you can wire speakers backwards, otherwise, what is the point of having + and - terminals?

And while you're right about a blown speaker, I kinda doubt that may be the problem, because he just replaced the speaker, unless the speaker was used when he bought it.
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#15
How did you wire the speakers (in series or parallel) and what were the impedance of each speaker?
#16
A speaker's impedance can't be directly measured with an ohmmeter because, as has already been stated, it varies with frequency. However, speakers aren't like resistors - they don't come in a wide array of different values - so it's not critical to know the precise impedance of a particular speaker, but just to know if it's roughly the same as the manufacturer rated it at. If it's radically different then something is wrong with the speaker. You can easily do this with an ohmmeter.

Speaker's are usually rated by the manufacter at their "nominal impedance". This is generally 1.15 times the minimum impedance of the speaker, which in turn is usually only slighter higher than it's DC resistance. Translated into practical terms, the DC resistance you measure with an ohmmeter will usually be around 3/4 of the speaker's rated impedance. This means an 8 ohm speaker will measure somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 ohms, but anything from 5 to 7 ohms would not be unusual. If you only measure a couple of ohms then the voice coil is probably shorted. If you measure infinity then the coil is blown.

By the way, don't try to measure a speaker's resistance while there's a lot of noise in the room (i.e., on stage while the band is playing). The sound will cause the cone to move, which will cause the voice coil to move. When you move a wire past a strong magnetic field like the one surrounding the voice coil it will generate a voltage in that wire. That voltage will play tricks with your readings, especially if you're using a digital meter.


And yes, you can wire speakers backwards, otherwise, what is the point of having + and - terminals?


Speakers aren't polarized like electrolytic capacitors. They won't explode if you hook them up "backwards". Those + and - markings are for phase.

A speaker voice coil is suspended in the middle position when there's no current going through it. It moves toward the front when the current flows in the direction indicated by those markings, and toward the back when current flows in the other direction. If you reverse the connections on a speaker it only means that the voice coil will move in the reverse of the direction it used to. Since the signal coming out of the amp is generally a balanced AC, with roughly equal positive and negative peaks, the speaker will simply be 180 degrees out of phase from what it was before. In a single speaker system it won't sound any different at all.

However, if you have TWO or more speakers, then you want to get them all connected the same way. You don't want one cone pushing out when the other is pulling in. The phase cancellation will sound awful. If the speakers are in parallel, then connect plus to plus and minus to minus. If they're in series, then connect plus on one speaker to minus on the next, etc.
#17
Quote by al112987
How did you wire the speakers (in series or parallel) and what were the impedance of each speaker?


+1 maybe this is a reason
#18
Quote by amp_surgeon


However, if you have TWO or more speakers, then you want to get them all connected the same way. You don't want one cone pushing out when the other is pulling in. The phase cancellation will sound awful. If the speakers are in parallel, then connect plus to plus and minus to minus. If they're in series, then connect plus on one speaker to minus on the next, etc.



Which is why I said so... he replaced speakerS... as in plural.

still, we need to know if there's any sound after the pop.
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#19
They are wired in parallel. Both are 16 ohm speakers, so the amp is set to 8 ohm. They are wired exactly like the old speakers were wired. I'll take some pictures tomorrow, so maybe you guys can spot any mistakes I made.
#20
How long have you owned it?

Im not sure if what's wrong with your amp is what was wrong with mine, but heres what i think it could be:
I bought a used Marshall tube amp from guitar center a few months ago, and after a couple weeks, it stopped working, like i could hear a faint static sound coming from it but it didn't amplify my guitar at all. I eventually got around to taking it to a repair shop, and they said that the solder used for the amplifier's electronics had become cracked over time due to the high temperatures that tube amps generate. This is apparently common in tube amps and you'll usually only to get it re-soldered once.

Im not sure if that's whats wrong with your amp but it could be the problem. :-/
#21
Here's some pics I took with my phone. Not the best quality, but you get the idea. I'm pretty sure that's the way the original speakers were wired, unless I had a brain fart or something..


#22
That looks kinda off. If it's in parallel, the + and - wires from the amp should be connected on the same speaker, shouldn't they?

The wire on the right (going to the amp) should be to the empty terminal on the empty speaker on the left, I think.

Parallel:

+    (-)
|      |
|      |
+-- (-)   (speaker 1)
|      |
|      |
+-- (-)   (speaker 2)

What you have:
+    (-) ---
|             |
|             |
+-- (-)       |   (speaker 1)
|      |      |
|      |      |  
+-- (-)-----    (speaker 2)
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Last edited by Reincaster at Jul 31, 2008,
#24
No, he wired it fine. The positive terminals on both speakers are connected together, and the negative terminals on both speakers are connected together. The positive output from the amp connects to the positive side of the speakers, and the negative output from the amp connects to the negative side of the speakers. It doesn't matter which of the two speakers the amp wires are connected to - they are electrically common.
#25
Quote by amp_surgeon
No, he wired it fine. The positive terminals on both speakers are connected together, and the negative terminals on both speakers are connected together. The positive output from the amp connects to the positive side of the speakers, and the negative output from the amp connects to the negative side of the speakers. It doesn't matter which of the two speakers the amp wires are connected to - they are electrically common.



Yes it does matter which of the two speakers it connects to. What he has right now, there's an incomplete circuit. yes, the positive terminals and negative terminals are connected together, THAT part is correct, however, the positive and negative from the amp must be connected to ONE speaker, otherwise, the loop is not completed,

look at it closely, the flow of current will be WRONG. In a parallel circuit, if I cut one of the wires in the center, one of the speakers would sill be functioning. However, in this case, they won't be.

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Last edited by Reincaster at Jul 31, 2008,
#26
thanks guys. So only one of the cables is wired wrong?

Since I tried turning it on when it was miswired, is there a possibility that I destroyed something?

Also, since my last attempt didn't go so well, I'm kind of a scaredy pants. What's the worst that could go wrong when speakers are miswired?
Last edited by fearo at Jul 31, 2008,
#27
Quote by fearo
thanks guys. So only one of the cables is wired wrong?

Since I tried turning it on when it was miswired, is there a possibility that I destroyed something?

Also, since my last attempt didn't go so well, I'm kind of a scaredy pants. What's the worst that could go wrong when speakers are miswired?


well, you turned it off right away, correct? No major damage should have been done. Just take the wire coming from the amp going to the right speaker, and put it on the open negative terminal of the left speaker
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#28
wow, thanks for the great help, ReinCaster and IbanezPsycho. Works like a charm now!
#29
Quote by fearo
wow, thanks for the great help, ReinCaster and IbanezPsycho. Works like a charm now!


You're fully welcome! Have fun!
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#31
Quote by Reincaster
Yes it does matter which of the two speakers it connects to. What he has right now, there's an incomplete circuit. yes, the positive terminals and negative terminals are connected together, THAT part is correct, however, the positive and negative from the amp must be connected to ONE speaker, otherwise, the loop is not completed,

look at it closely, the flow of current will be WRONG. In a parallel circuit, if I cut one of the wires in the center, one of the speakers would sill be functioning. However, in this case, they won't be.


Check your logic there... The speaker receiving positive is also receiving negative via the link to the other speaker.

It's definitely convoluted, but the loop is completed, unless you cut one of the wires, which I do not recommend.
#32
Quote by The Atomic Ass
Check your logic there... The speaker receiving positive is also receiving negative via the link to the other speaker.

It's definitely convoluted, but the loop is completed, unless you cut one of the wires, which I do not recommend.


Then why didn't it work?

From my understanding, to create a parallel circuit, you must first have a regular circuit that is completed, then add the following circuits as branches.

What my diagram tries to point out is that the original way, both positive and negative signals were split into all sorts of directions, as opposed to neat, one wayy loops. The way the TS had it wired the first time, the positive went through the left speaker, AND to the other speaker, while the negative did the same. the second part of my diagram shows the current moving in ONE direction.

In a parallel circuit, cutting one of the wires in between the speakers will still have at least one circuit working, and it won't damage the amp, just make it somewhat quieter. Just like some christmas lights, when one goes out, the rest of the lights still work.

If I cut one of the middle wires in between the speakers in the original way it was wired, it would leave an open circuit.
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Last edited by Reincaster at Aug 1, 2008,
#33
Quote by Reincaster
Then why didn't it work?

From my understanding, to create a parallel circuit, you must first have a regular circuit that is completed, then add the following circuits as branches.

What my diagram tries to point out is that the original way, both positive and negative signals were split into all sorts of directions, as opposed to neat, one wayy loops. The way the TS had it wired the first time, the positive went through the left speaker, AND to the other speaker, while the negative did the same. the second part of my diagram shows the current moving in ONE direction.

In a parallel circuit, cutting one of the wires in between the speakers will still have at least one circuit working, and it won't damage the amp, just make it somewhat quieter. Just like some christmas lights, when one goes out, the rest of the lights still work.

If I cut one of the middle wires in between the speakers in the original way it was wired, it would leave an open circuit.


Well, TS never stated it didn't work, and going by what he's said, I assume that once he heard the pop, he shut it back off without playing anything. Now why the pop went away just by swapping the wires is a mystery to me.

To create a proper textbook parallel circuit, yes, that's what you do. But there's always more than one way to do something.

Electricity doesn't really care if it goes in a straight line, loop-de-loops, or in inverse triangulated polygons, it just goes in whatever circuit you design for it. (It's AC btw, so it never moves in one direction. )

True, but again, that's in a textbook parallel circuit. And the christmas lights I grew up with were wired in series, so we had to track down the 1 or 2 dead bulbs every season when the whole string wouldn't light up.

No argument there. But I would recommend seeking professional help for these wire cutting urges of yours.
#34
Quote by The Atomic Ass
Well, TS never stated it didn't work, and going by what he's said, I assume that once he heard the pop, he shut it back off without playing anything. Now why the pop went away just by swapping the wires is a mystery to me.

To create a proper textbook parallel circuit, yes, that's what you do. But there's always more than one way to do something.

Electricity doesn't really care if it goes in a straight line, loop-de-loops, or in inverse triangulated polygons, it just goes in whatever circuit you design for it. (It's AC btw, so it never moves in one direction. )

True, but again, that's in a textbook parallel circuit. And the christmas lights I grew up with were wired in series, so we had to track down the 1 or 2 dead bulbs every season when the whole string wouldn't light up.

No argument there. But I would recommend seeking professional help for these wire cutting urges of yours.


So I looked it up, and this is what I found:

The reason for the pop seems like it was parallel, but out of phase or something.

Did I say ALL christmas lights? No, I said SOME, and practically all christmas lights today are wired in parallel. I KNOW older christmas lights were in series.

As for wire cutting, har har, I was trying to prove a point.
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Last edited by Reincaster at Aug 1, 2008,
#35
Quote by Reincaster
So I looked it up, and this is what I found:

The reason for the pop seems like it was parallel, but out of phase or something.

Did I say ALL christmas lights? No, I said SOME, and practically all christmas lights today are wired in parallel. I KNOW older christmas lights were in series.

As for wire cutting, har har, I was trying to prove a point.


And going completely off-topic...

New christmas lights suck for that very reason. Half the fun every year was tracking down the dead bulb.

/me is a masochist
#36
Quote by Reincaster
So I looked it up, and this is what I found:

The reason for the pop seems like it was parallel, but out of phase or something.

Did I say ALL christmas lights? No, I said SOME, and practically all christmas lights today are wired in parallel. I KNOW older christmas lights were in series.

As for wire cutting, har har, I was trying to prove a point.



Look carefully at the first pic in the OP's post. The amp wire with the red dot is connected to the + lug on the left speaker. The red jumper is connected to the same lug, and then connected to the + lug on the right speaker. They weren't connected out of phase.

A parallel circuit is like a ladder. It doesn't matter which end of each pole you're connected to; top, bottom, or middle - current will still flow evenly through each rung.

This...


pos ---+---+
       |   |
       []  []
       |   |
neg ---+---+


is no different from this...


pos ---+---+
       |   |
       []  []
       |   |
       +---+
           |
neg -------+


or this...


pos -----+
         |
       +-+-+
       |   |
       []  []
       |   |
       +-+-+
         |
neg -----+


If it worked when he moved the wire then something else is wrong. Probably a bad connection on one of the wires between the speakers. Are both speakers working now?
#37
Both speakers are working perfectly now. Before I wired it the way Reincaster and IbanezPsycho told me, I reseated all the connections 2 times, and every time I got the 'pop' and then nothing. After I wired it the way they told me, it worked instantly.
#38
Quote by fearo
Both speakers are working perfectly now. Before I wired it the way Reincaster and IbanezPsycho told me, I reseated all the connections 2 times, and every time I got the 'pop' and then nothing. After I wired it the way they told me, it worked instantly.


Fair enough. Then you've got some voodoo going on that I can't explain because there's nothing electrically different about the two wiring configurations except for the length of wire reaching each speaker. In your original configuration the length was equal for both speakers. In your new configuration the length is longer for one speaker than it is for the other.

I could postulate theories all day long about why this made a difference, but without having the amp right here in front of me I couldn't make any definitive statements about it. I just don't want anybody walking away from this thread with the impression that a parallel speaker configuration REQUIRES both amp wires to be connected to the same end of the ladder, because it just ain't true.