#1
My rig right now sounds amazing for what I paid for it. I can get about the same quality sound as I have heard at the many concerts I've been at. But, I know how much tubes improve tone, so I was thinking about saving up for a small tube amp to upgrade my sound. If I were to crank the tube amp and run the outs into my PA and then into my cab, I would still have the warmth from the cranked tubes, correct? Then I could use my pre-amp for effects.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#2
Yngedit: Won't work and I don't want to be responsible for the breaking of expensive gear
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Last edited by Yngwi3 at Jul 29, 2008,
#3
A tube amp will make your sound better, and warmer, but running a V-Amp with amp simulation will pretty much rob your amp of its warmth and tone. Sell your V-amp, and get some good stompboxes for the effects you use. It will sound tons better, not digital, and youll have more flexability from your single effects.
#5
Quote by Yngwi3
I think you should be able to yes as you're still pushing the valves and speakers with high volume, as they're designed to.
Tell me how it goes though - I personally am too scared to plug my head into my mixer THEN go out into the cab - I know it should work in theory, but I'm still scared to try


#####DO NOT TRY THIS#####

running a signal from a speaker out on an amp is asking for trouble. You could, in theory, run from the preamp out/FX loop send into a channel on a mixer, but never, ever run a signal from a power amp into a mixer.

What you should try is micing the amp. standard way is a Shure SM57 on the speaker, positioned to get the sound you want and run the mic into the mixer, and then through the PA. This way the amp acts as a monitor onstage, free-ing up monitor mixes, and such.

Advantage is you get a monitor for your guitar as I said above, and therefor if you have a monitor for vocals and such, they will sound clearer. also, a big factor in an amp is the "colour" that the speaker adds to the tone. with micing the amp, you still get the awesome tone, which would be lost if you DI'ed the guitar straight into the PA.

Disadvantage is pretty much a very loud stage volume. A cranked amp will be hard to compete with, regardless of the wattage, so as a result, everyone else turns up and the overall stage volume becomes too loud.
Quote by Dave_Mc
how do those marshall handles compare tonewise to, say, mesa handles?

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#6
Quote by AndyPandy
#####DO NOT TRY THIS#####

running a signal from a speaker out on an amp is asking for trouble. You could, in theory, run from the preamp out/FX loop send into a channel on a mixer, but never, ever run a signal from a power amp into a mixer.

Gahr My plans are foiled.
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#7
I don't have a mixer. But anyways, if I would run my guitar into say an Orange TT head cranked then into my PA and only turn it up loud enough to have the speakers rocking, I wouldn't really get the tube tone? I have a good mic that I use for recording infront of my cab but its USB and I use it with pc software.

If my idea would work, what's a real good low watt tube amp to try? I know Orange amps are supposed to be good but just a tiny terror head is like 500-600 bucks on ebay.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
Last edited by Dimebag06Darrel at Jul 29, 2008,
#8
A Tiny terror and a nice cab would be a good amp to gig with. Its got the maguc "half power" switch, so you could run it at 7 or 15W. at 7W, you could definately get a cranked sound on stage without being too loud. what genres you playing, and perhaps we can suggest something more suitable on a similar budget.

You mentioned your PA. what does it consist of?
Quote by Dave_Mc
how do those marshall handles compare tonewise to, say, mesa handles?

Owns a Blackheart Little Giant...
#9
I play just about everything. From cleans to classic rock to metal. Right now I run into my digital preamp with its output cranked, into my PA which I barely have to turn up and then into my cab. Cranking the preamp gives me amazing sound quality but with all the hype about tubes I suppose using a small watt cranked tube amp would sound even better.

Here's the PA: http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-EP1500-LIST It's stereo 2x700watt.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#11
right, you would require a mixer and some PA speakers of some description, and a mic suited for micing guitar live (the sm57 is the industry standard for this)



thats how the setup would work. hope it makes sense. of course, you could use any mixer or pa speakers, i just chose these because I am familiar with them.

Edit: Hmm, having read your description of what you play, I'm not sure a tube amp is going to be the best bet for you, unless you want to get into running multiple amps to get a clean sound and an overdriven sound, then I'd just stick with your current setup. You said you were happy with the sound, so why not stick with it just now? Although many people say tubes are better than SS amps, this isnt strictly true. A good SS amp with some good modelling effects through it can sound superb on stage. This type of setup suits people who play multiple genres, as it can be altered and adapted easily and quickly without carrying vast amounts of gear to every gig.
Quote by Dave_Mc
how do those marshall handles compare tonewise to, say, mesa handles?

Owns a Blackheart Little Giant...
Last edited by AndyPandy at Jul 29, 2008,
#12
Damn. I hate to buy so much **** when I'm strapped for cash. So just having an all-tube head cranked running directly into my PA for a volume boost and out into a cab wouldn't be good? I could afford buying a nice all-tube head but not a bunch of ****.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#13
Read the bit I just posted in my edit above.

I think you would be better sticking with your current setup. or perhaps buying a nice modelling amp like a line 6 vetta or perhaps a good old roland JC120 to run the effects through.
Quote by Dave_Mc
how do those marshall handles compare tonewise to, say, mesa handles?

Owns a Blackheart Little Giant...
#14
Quote by Dimebag06Darrel
Damn. I hate to buy so much **** when I'm strapped for cash. So just having an all-tube head cranked running directly into my PA for a volume boost and out into a cab wouldn't be good? I could afford buying a nice all-tube head but not a bunch of ****.

I don't you've read thoroughly. We've said multiple times that you need to mic your amp - don't run it direct into your PA.
#15
Yes I am pretty well satisfied. I appreciate your help. About the only issue I have with my amp is it is hard to get a lot of harmonics regardless of gain settings. I read about tubes producing a much broader range of frequencies that you can't get any other way and thought it would help in that regard as well as improving quality even more.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#16
Quote by forsaknazrael
I don't you've read thoroughly. We've said multiple times that you need to mic your amp - don't run it direct into your PA.


I know that is what you keep recommending, and people do that live, yes. I don't have a band right now and just use my setup in my house and for recording. My question was if using a cranked tube amp as my preamp would really improve my tone.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#17
The "tube overdrive" tone your looking for comes from the power tubes being pushed hard and distorting the signal. Using it as a preamp would in theory work, but it wouldnt give you the tone your expecting.
Quote by Dave_Mc
how do those marshall handles compare tonewise to, say, mesa handles?

Owns a Blackheart Little Giant...
#18
There is one thing you can do.

You need your amp, an attenuator with a line out, and another amp.

What you do is hook the tube amp up to the attenuator, crank and attenuate it, and then use the line out to hook it up to the other amp. You wanna hook it up to a good set of speakers also, remember.. Speakers make a BIG difference to tone. EVH did this and riffhog told me about it, he does it with his Mojave Scorpion I believe.
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#19
Ok so tube amp -> pa -> cab wouldn't work but tube amp -> attenuator -> pa -> cab would?

I was thinking that a cranked low watt tube amp would just be a couple times louder than my digital preamp cranked to its max output, and I would just have to cut back on the PA output into my cab.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
Last edited by Dimebag06Darrel at Jul 29, 2008,
#20
Quote by Dimebag06Darrel
I know that is what you keep recommending, and people do that live, yes. I don't have a band right now and just use my setup in my house and for recording. My question was if using a cranked tube amp as my preamp would really improve my tone.

I don't think so. The magic of the tube amp is in the power amp, IMO.
#21
Quote by forsaknazrael
I don't think so. The magic of the tube amp is in the power amp, IMO.


But the tube amps PA would still be in effect using the speaker outs... it's not like I was going to run it out of a headphone jack or something.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#22
Quote by Dimebag06Darrel
Ok so tube amp -> pa -> cab wouldn't work but tube amp -> attenuator -> pa -> cab would?

I was thinking that a cranked low watt tube amp would just be a couple times louder than my digital preamp cranked to its max output, and I would just have to cut back on the PA output into my cab.
Yeah, but remember the PA has to be put into a guitar cab ideally...

Yeah, that's what the attenuator is for - to take the volume of the tube amp down.
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#24
Okay, thanks. My cab's speakers are all 12" 100 watters... so they can handle a punch. If even a 10 or 15 watt tube would put out a lot of volume, I could just barely turn up my PA to get it at a real good volume, correct? I don't have to crank it much when I have my current preamp's output maxed and it sounds pretty good. I checked out attenuators and a lot are like 300-400 dollars, but since my PA isn't real high wattage could I get by with having the tube amp cranked and just using my PA to up the volume a tad? This is what I was trying to get at with my first post. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the help.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#25
Quote by forsaknazrael
I would use a load box or a dummy load to bring the tube amp down to line level, actually, not an attenuator.
Well it's all the same thing... The attenuator with a line out function acts as a dummy load on the amp and then the amp doesn't care about what impedance it sees after that. Hopefully riffhog will chip in here. That's what he says he does though.

^ No. There has to be a load on the tube amp. And the attenuator has to take the output from the amp and take it down to a level at which it doesn't distort the PA.
The Laney Thread are big and clever. No exceptions.
#26
I'm not to savy when it comes to PA's...I've only played a few small shows where I'd just plug straight into my amp and that be it.
But how would I safely and effectivly go about connecting my amp to a PA?
Would I go with the line out on my amp meant for connecting to a cab and plug into the PA from there?
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#27
You need a box that goes between the output of your head and the input of your PA. The output of your head that normaly goes to your cab NEEDS A DI BOX or some sort of line level device in front of it. If you connect your head straight to the PA and crank the head you will F**ck up the PA. Many run their head normally into a cab and mic the cab to get the sound into the PA. DI boxes are expensive and you need one that is capable of handing the power of your head.
#28
Quote by HLrocker
I'm not to savy when it comes to PA's...I've only played a few small shows where I'd just plug straight into my amp and that be it.
But how would I safely and effectivly go about connecting my amp to a PA?
Would I go with the line out on my amp meant for connecting to a cab and plug into the PA from there?
Have you read anything in this thread?
The Laney Thread are big and clever. No exceptions.
#29
Sorry if this doesn't help anyone, but I love the sound of my amp mic'd up. It has such a live organic feel to it. Mic it up and be done with it!
#30
Quote by MrCarrot
Have you read anything in this thread?


Yes, and from what I understand the best way is to mic the amp. But I only play small backyard shows and occasionaly at a church on wednesday nights. The church has a PA, but only 2 mic's available for us to use, so there's one for the lead singer and one for me and our bassist to share for BGV's. My friend's dad has a PA we use for the backyard shows, but he only has one mic....so mic'in the amp is pretty much out of the question.

So basicly I just want to know if it's safe for me to hook up my valveking to the mixer/sound board (whatever it's called) through that into the PA?
Quote by dcdossett65
Life is too short to worry about this crap.

Who.

Cares.
#31
^ I wouldn't, the amp NEEDS a load on it from a speaker or a dummy load or attenuator.
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#32
in short, no, you cannot plug directly into the mixer. ever.

if you don't keep a load on the amp, it will die.
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#33
Ok as I see it you have two options. Well, Three.

1. Mic the damn amp. Who cares if you play at home.
2. Buy a decent valve combo, plug into it, crank and attenuate it, use the line out on the attenuator to send to yout other amps input, and play from there. I agree that a dummy load with a line out would be better because then you do not have sound eminating from your other amp (cranked valve). Maybe a head would be better in this case.
3. Buy a decent valve power amp and run the guitar into the input of your vAmp, then use the headphone/line out to plug directly into the power amp. Also find a cab for the power amp and amplify from there (you could even maybe wire up your vAmp speaker to the power amp) Look at a Marshall 20/20 or something in this case.
...
#34
I am trying to avoid micing because then I'd have to buy a new mic (mine is usb and for my pc), mixer, and a tube combo. I wanted to spend the cash I save up on a decent sounding low watt tube amp and use the PA and cab I already have. I just remembered reading about Alexi using a preamp into PA setup and started searching up tube preamps... some go on ebay for like 200 bucks! Even an all-tube preamp would def upgrade my tone, right? I'm going to have to keep searching...

Something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300244607453&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=170240061814&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget&_trksid=p284.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%252BIA%26itu%3DIA%252BUCI%26otn%3D4%26ps%3D42

I'm going to hunt for soundclips somewhere.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#35
^Alexi uses a rack setup, so he has a tube preamp going into a different kind of power amp, not sure what it is, though.

Quote by MrCarrot
Well it's all the same thing... The attenuator with a line out function acts as a dummy load on the amp and then the amp doesn't care about what impedance it sees after that. Hopefully riffhog will chip in here. That's what he says he does though.

Well, not all attenuators can be used as a dummy load. I know what you mean, but I wouldn't make that generalization. But yeah, I know what you mean.
#36
If you are just playing at home why do you need a PA..
You can just use a combo amp. I belive it would be loud enough for home practice..or even gigs..

If you are hellbent on getting tube sound You could get a tube pre amp like this one
http://www.voodoolab.com/preamp.htm
Ofcourse i dont have any experience with this. May be spme one who has used a tube preamp thru a PA can share their experience..
#37
I already have a PA. I bought my modeling preamp like 4 years ago and just recently bought a PA and 4x12" 400 watt cab to power it. I'm going to try an all-tube preamp through my PA and see what happens.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in
#38
Well today I got my Twin Tube Mayhem. At first I was somewhat disappointed, as the pedal set at high gain into a clean setting didn't sound very hot. Right before I was about to give up on it, I realized that all high gain tube amp setups are boosted with an OD, so I thought "hell, crank the pedals tubes and use it to boost a medium gain setting on my amp" and it ****in blew me away. Much better results than trying to boost just a solidstate signal with an OD pedal.. that doesn't work. The cranked tubes in the pedal take my amp's tone from muffled, dull, and lifeless to cut your headoff ****in powerful. I am very happy And I now have a 4 or 8db boost at my disposal as well.
"In peaceful sedation I lay half awake, and all of the panic inside starts to fade. Hopelessly drifting, bathing in